This from Mike Lopina:
While at O’Hare (ORD) for annual ARFF & Haz-Mat training, I was able to capture some rigs in between evolutions. 5-3-1 carries a Zumro tent, HVAC equipment for the Zumro & some decon equipment and is based at ORD Rescue Station 1. 8-8-1A is currently housed at the AMC building at ORD. 6-5-7S (Spare), Engine 9 & the new 2-7-8 were at the training facility for Zumro tent set up training. 6-5-T is the training rig for the pit and is a 1988 Oshkosh T-3000 crash rig. 2-9-8 is the training officer for ORD and 2-9-12 is currently the coordinator for the live fire simulators. Also attached is Lockport Rescue 6 getting ready to attack a fire in the Pit and Orland Engine 8 (Reserve) pumping handlines for the Pit and the Wheel/Brake/Interior simulator.Mike Lopina
Mike Lopina photo
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#1 by george eimer on October 12, 2013 - 7:52 PM
Thanks Bill. Info great…By the way the crew i rode with was cap. Samson ….thanks again
#2 by Bill Post on October 11, 2013 - 6:52 PM
George here is the information that you wanted on the Salvage Squads.
Salvage Squad 1 put in service February 2nd 1967 at Engine 42 228 W Illinois
Taken out of service on May 1st 1969 at Engine 5’s quarters.
Salvage Squad 2 put in service February 2nd 1967 at Engine 5’s quarters.
taken out of service on June 1 1972 from Engine 67.
Salvage Squad 3 put in service October 1st at Engine 83 1219 W Gunnison was actually taken out of service on October 8th 1972 but wasn’t “officially” out of service until January !st 1973.
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Salvage Squad 4 put in service October Ist 1968 at Engine 49 1653 W 43rd street. Taken out of service on November 1st 1972 from Engine 50.
Salvage Squad 5 put in service October 1st 1968 at Engine Truck 16 1407 E 62nd place. Taken out of service on March 31st 1972 from the same location which now was identified as Engine 63’s quarters as Engine 63 had moved in on September 2nd 1969.
Salvage Squad 6 put in service on October 1st 1968 at Engine 106. Taken out of service on November 16th 1971 from Engine 106.
Salvage Squad 7 put in service on October 1st 1968 at Engine 129. Taken out of service on November 16th 1971 from Engine 129.
George Salvage Squad 1 was put in service at Engine 42 and was moved to Engine 5 on September 30th 1968 because on October 1st the Salvage Squads were reorganized to have one located in each of Chicago;s 7 fire fighting Divisions. Salvage Squad 2 was relocated to Engine 24 but was eventually relocated to Engine 67. Salvage Squad 1 was the first Salvage Squad that was taken out of service and it was done when Flying Squad 4 was put in service on the same day on May1st 1969.
Salvage Squad 3 was relocated to Engine 83 new station on January 8th 1969 but was relocated to Engine 22’s new station on July 25th 1972.
Salvage Squad 4 was relocated from Engine 49 to Engine 50 on November 14th 1971.
Salvage Squad 5 was relocated from Engine 63 and Truck 16 to Engine 72 on March 2nd 1971 but was relocated back to Engine 63 on November 15th 1971.
#3 by george eimer on October 11, 2013 - 3:17 PM
Talking about squads when did the salvage sqs go out of service . back in the 70s I rode salvage sq. 3 with them when 83s house was Batt. 20 I was a liut. streamwood vol. fire. dept at the time
#4 by tom sullivan on October 11, 2013 - 7:36 AM
in regards to chicago following fdny, remember that when the Chicago flying squads started in service (1969) they were engine companies that were switched over. they ran with an engine apparatus and one bed of 2 1/2″ hose. they could lead out if first on the scene or later ordered by the chief. this rarely happened. they were manned with an engr. the second hose bed was filled with some truck / squad tools and a stack of salvage covers. these made a seat for a couple of guys to ride facing sideways.
fms 6 exchanged rigs with e-112, a mack for a pirsch, because the mack had better pumps. in those days many companies never had a regular assigned rig, as they broke down, including the squads, they would get another “spare” and run with that until it broke, then another, etc.
when the new purpose built flying squad rigs arrived about 1972 , they lost the assigned engr. they had a booster tank & hardline hose reel. as time went on those were removed to reduce weight because of the breaking down of the rigs.
the flying squads were putting on some heavy mileage.
#5 by Bill Post on October 10, 2013 - 11:13 PM
Mike Mc the idea of having “New York Style” Squad/ Engines is an interesting idea and yes I appreciated your comment from October 5th on Chicago’s New York City fire “adoptions” when Chicago had gone to 2 Truck stills in the early 1980’s and Chicago’s subsequent “adoptions” of New City Tactics.
That was the first thing that had hit my mind when Chicago had gone to 2 Truck stills. As you know New York City had been dispatching 2 Trucks to their structure fires for years. One of the reasons for that is that New York City had always dispatched their fire alarms as full boxes and even their “phoned in fire alarms” were always dispatched by the nearest fire box number. A full box in New York city had been 3 Engines and 2 Trucks plus a Battalion Chief. It wasn’t until later years (the late 60’s and early 70’s that New York City had reduced their box responses to only 2 Engines and 2 Trucks. If they had arrive on the scene of a box alarm and they had working fire then they would ask for a 10-75 “All hands working signal” they would then dispatch a second Battalion Chief and a Division Chief and in many cases a Rescue company would also be dispatched. When they reduced the initial response to only 2 Engines then when a 10-75 would be requested then the third Engine would also be dispatched. The 4th Engine wasn’t added to New York boxes until later years such as the 90’s and possibly the 80’s.
As far as Squads in New York City goes , they are a relatively new phenomena. While 3 Squads where temporarily used as manpower companies during World War 2 and one was used as a “Flying Squad during World War 1 they were only in service during the Wars.
New York City’s Squads actually were began in earnest in 1955 when 4 Squads were put in service as Manpower companies in busy areas of Manhattan , the Bronx and Brooklyn, Five more Squads were added in 1959 though 1961. The Squads were dispatched in areas with high fire workloads to assist the Engines and Trucks because the companies in some of those areas were already very busy and the Squads would man extra hose lines and help with searches and ventilation (Truck work).That would sometimes be able to keep requests for extra alarms down, however the fire rate in some areas of Manhattan , the Bronx and Brooklyn continued to go up so beginning in 1966 pumpers started being assigned to the some of Squads so that they could lead out a line on the fire if they arrived before the first due Engine company. Unlike Chicago’s Flying Manpower Squads New York City’s Squads didn’t back up 4 man companies because in New York City 6 and 7 man Engines and Trucks were the norm and not the exception so the Squads were backing up companies that were already very busy and had plenty of manpower assigned to them. Three of the Squads 7,8 and 9 had been disbanded in 1966 and 1967 however the manpower from Squads 7 and 9 were used to create a new Engine and a new Truck company.
In 1972 Squad 6 was taken out of service to create another new Truck company.
During the mid 1970’s New York City was going through a severe financial crisis so a number of fire companies were being taken of service so in 1976 the remaining 5 Squad companies were all taken out of service.
About a year later in 1977 Squad 1 was put back in service however it was really put back in service for “political reasons”.
When Squad 1 was taken out of service in 1976 they were located with Engine 45 in the Bronx. All of the Squads had been located with Engine companies despite the last several years that they were in service they were assigned Engines as their regular apparatus.
Squad 1 was recreated when the neighborhood of Park Slope in Brooklyn had organized and attempted to put pressure on the city to reopen the fire station of Engine 269 at 788 Union street that was closed down during November of 1975. The City had insisted that an Engine company wasn’t necessary at that location however the city decided to reopen Engine 269’s former station on December 3rd 1977 and they had put Squad 1 back in service at Engine 269’s old quarters. Squad 1 was also given a medium size cabinet equipped Rescue Truck which was called the Technical Rescue Vehicle and responded on certain Special rescue runs such as building collapses and other major emergencies as a second section of Squad 1. Normally Squad 1 would respond only with it’s Engine. Squad 1 responded as the first due Engine to all boxes where former Engine 269 was first due and beyond that it responded on 10-75 (working fire signals) in a portion of Brooklyn where it was used as a manpower company. The Squad was also equipped with Truck and some Rescue company tools which included the Hurst Tool , AIrbags and some other equipment. That was the first time that the Squads in New York City were equipped with Rescue company tools,
Squad 1 ran as New York City’s only Squad from November 3rd 1977 until July of 1998 when 6 additional Engine companies were converted into Squad companies. That in and of itself isn’t totally accurate either because in the Bronx there had been a similar “political situation” to that of Engine 269’s former Quarters.
On May 3rd 1989 the New York City Fire department had closed Engine 41’s quarters in the Bronx and Engine 41 was taken out of service. There was also community pressure to reopen Engine 41’s Station so on July 1st 1990 Engine 41 was reopened and Engine 41 was put back in service however even though it was called Engine 41 it was run like a Squad company which meant that it had larger area beyond it’s box alarm district where it responded on working fires and it was also dispatched on Special Operations incidents because of special Rescue and Haz Mat Training that the crew had received. It had been classified as an “Enhanced Engine”.
When the 5 additional Engine companies were converted to Squad companies in July of 1998 Engine 41 was official redesignated as a Squad even though for about 8 years it was functioning as if it were a Squad company.
New York City’s current Squads have all replaced Engine companies are were given the numbers of the Engine companies that they had replaced with the exception of Squad company 1 which did replace Engine 269. The other 6 Squads are number 41 and 61 (former Bronx Engines) , Squads 270 and 288 (former Queens Engines) Squad 252 (former Brooklyn Engine) and Squad 18 (former Manhattan Engine). Staten Island is the only New York borrough without a Squad company assigned to it. Each Squad has a Step Van assigned to it which they take to all HazMat runs that they respond to as they are also Hazardous Material support units.
Even though New York City’s Squads did run with Engines from the mid 1960s and late 1960’s through 1976 they responded in addition to Engine companies that they were co/located with and Engine companies while todays Squads function as both first , second and third due Engines as well as Squad companies beyond their box alarm districts.
#6 by Mike Mc on October 10, 2013 - 1:51 PM
Bill: I always thought the best way for Chicago to fill the squad “gap” would be to convert three or more engine companies into six man FDNY style squads (resuce pumpers). They could respond to working fires and extrication incidents and be able to perform truck company, as well as, regular engine company duties. They would have to be six man companies because Local 2 would never give you a waiver on the engineer. They may require a second piece light rescue rig that they could take to special duty incidents. Engines 93, 107, and 110 would be excellent candidates.
Of course, you would have to then call the current squad companies “Snorkel Squads”. (Imagine that?) If some day they stop using a second piece snorkel, they could simply be called “Rescue 1, 2, and (in my opinion a long over due number change) 3”.
I seriously doubt if we will ever see another Chicago squad company. The far south side may be large geographically, but every year it becomes less and less significant in “clout.” Very little industry left, fewer commercial properties, no high rises, many abandoned buildings, etc. If two or three frames were to be destroyed in an extra alarm fire in Lincoln Park, for example, it would be a big news story. If three or four frames were to be destroyed on the south side, you might never even hear about it.
The only way to improve fire protection in the 6th District will have to be mutual aid with the south suburbs. If current economic trends and budget deficits continue, both in the city and the south suburbs, the the only way to keep the current level of fire protection in the 6th District and the south suburbs will be mutual aid. They did it in Boston.
#7 by Bill Post on October 10, 2013 - 12:38 AM
I am aware the Chicago’s Trucks are equipped with Hurst Tools. What I’m suggesting is that several Truck companies have what would be called a “full extrication” package which would include airbag’s, chocks , a Slim Jim, a windshield saw, rebar cutters, air chisel, Wizzer air saw, Sawzall saw, cable cutter, center punch and ring cutter.
Currently Chicago’s Trucks don’t carry the airbags so I’m suggesting that some of the Trucks should be equipped with them and some other extrication equipment that currently only the Squads carry.
I am suggesting that some of the Trucks that are located at the far ends of the city and expressway systems that are a good distance from the Squad companies be so equipped so as not to have to wait for a Squad company to arrive in order to have some of that equipment on the scene. Having some Trucks with all of the extrication gear on them would also take pressure off the Squads in case they should be tied up on fires or other incidents.
All 143 of New York City’s Truck (Ladder) companies are so equipped and the same goes for the Los Angeles City Fire deparment.
As I doubt that Chicago could presently afford to put airbags on all of it’s Truck companies, I’m suggesting that about 1/3 or about 20 Trucks be so equipped.
Before November 2003 roughly about 1/3 of Chicago’s Trucks were equipped with Hurst Tools and the rest were equipped with airpowered “boss tools”. I’m suggesting that designated “Heavy Extrication” Trucks be spread out in the city like our Hurst tool equipped Trucks were (before all of the Trucks were equipped with the Hurst tools in late 2003).
#8 by FFEMT on October 9, 2013 - 4:49 PM
Each truck has a full set of hurst tools……..
#9 by Brian on October 9, 2013 - 11:42 AM
Putting some tools on a number of truck companies throughout the city as “extrication trucks” would make a lot of sense.
#10 by NJ on October 9, 2013 - 8:42 AM
Bill, you are correct there would need to be some reorganization. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to have two specialized rigs designed for completely different functions to operate as a single unit. Especially when there are so few of them. When they’re at a fire they cannot respond to extrication, when they’re at extrication they cannot respond to a fire. Mind you, fire’s can be fought using other methods without the snorkels. Many extrications cannot be done without a squad.
The other alternative, as I stated below is to equip some Truck Co’s with the extra equipment for extrication.
#11 by Bill Post on October 9, 2013 - 4:33 AM
NJ so in other words you would convert the Snorkel Squads into “Heavy Rescue Squads” and have the 55 foot Snorkels operate independently correct?
In order to do that the Chicago FIre Department would have to develop new apparatus specifications for the Squads as some of that Rescue Squad equipment is currently carried in some of the cabinets on the current Snorkel apparatus. The new specs would probably have the box Squad be greatly enlarged from what it is today as the equipment would all be carried on one large apparatus so it would probably be a tandem (double rear axle) axle apparatus which would more closely resemble Chicago’s current Squad 7 or Schaumburgs Squad 55A. The 55 foot Snorkels would probably be spread out around the city so they could be special called when needed.
Chicago did that after September 19th 1983 when the CFD took three of six Snorkel companies ( in the city proper) out of service. Those three Snorkels were distributed with one on the Northside (at Engine 112) one on the West Side (at Engine 107) and one on the south side ( at Engine 72), Several times a few of them were relocated again. For a while one was located at Engine 76 and another one was also at Engine 101,
A few years after the Tower Ladders were put in service then all of the reserve Snorkels except the 1982 Seagrave/Pierce 85 foot Snorkel were taken out of service. Most of the reserve Snorkels were 1975 Oskosh Pierce 75 footers with a 1973 model as well.
That’s interesting wishful thinking as hopefully Chicago will be getting the new Rosenbauer Snorkel Squads over the next year.
#12 by Jim on October 8, 2013 - 5:50 PM
A little off subject but the original snorkel built by snorkel that Chicago rejected was purchased by Bedford Park. That snorkel is currently going through a restoration at Bedford Park station 1 on Archer and Roberts Roads.
#13 by tom sullivan on October 8, 2013 - 8:41 AM
bill,
excellent recap of snorkel history ! the addition of tools & equipment,, saws, masks, multi-versa; pipes, etc. made a huge difference in effectiveness. many of those additions were called for in the “mattman” report. some chiefs had a more proactive view of those and drilling / training was a priority on putting them to work. it was a regular drill to drop 2 lines ( 2 1/2 ” & 3″) into a multi – versal or aerial pipe and get water in a rapid manner. many of the rigs did not have booster tanks and the drill called for hard suction hook up to the hydrant, even so water could be sent fairly quickly.
with the use of tower ladders, 4″ lines , deck guns, etc. it has made a difference in the number of extra (2, 3, 4, etc.)alarms.
#14 by NJ on October 8, 2013 - 8:29 AM
CFD 1979: Agreed. Even split, the Snorkel companies would be dispatched to Still & Box, unless they were specifically requested due to tight spaces and lack of room for the TL’s or straight sticks.
#15 by NJ on October 8, 2013 - 8:25 AM
Bill, as usual thanks for the great history.
The bottom line, IMO is that under current conditions CFD would be better off splitting the Squads so the Snorkels are cross manned units brought out on a Still & Box. There is no need to tie up the squad just to bring that rig out there.
Squads would be dispatched on water rescues, heavy duty extrications and similar.
#16 by Bill Post on October 7, 2013 - 10:09 PM
The main reason for the Snorkel on the “Snorkel” Squad (yes I realize that they are no longer officially called Snorkel Squads) is to have a smaller more compact Platform that can get into the small tight places.
As far as Tower Ladders go Chicago really doesn’t have enough of them to respond to all of the working still alarms however if a still and box gets struck and a Tower Ladder isn’t one of the Still Trucks or the RIT truck then a Tower Ladder will automatically be dispatched as the Box Truck.
Chicago’s Original Snorkel Squad (known as SS 1) was put in service around Sept 1962 and it’s twin SS 2 was put in service about a year later on the south side at Engine 60’s new (at the time) quarters. Both of the Snorkel Squads were running with 40 foot Snorkels and the second piece was a small booster tank equipped High Pressure Fog pumper which the CFD just called a Fog Pressure. The Fog Pressure carried additional equipment on board and usually four men would ride the Snorkel rig and three men would be on the Fog Pressure which always followed the Snorkel on the run.
At the time also Chicago had 7 regular “large” Snorkel companies which were from 50 to 85 feet in height. The first of the regular Snorkel companies was put in service in October 1958 as a “Water Tower” but was officially renamed the Snorkel on May 1st 1959.
The regular Snorkels were used strictly for their elevating Platforms (unlike the Snorkel Squads). BY January of 1962 all seven Snorkel companies were in service and 2 of them were normally dispatched on a Still and Box alarm plus one was dispatched on the 2-11 and one was also dispatched on the 3-11.
The Snorkel Squads did respond on some still and box alarms but not all of them. Snorkel Squad 1 (located at 1044 N Orleans) only responded as far north as Foster avenue on the Still and Box alarm. If a 2-11 was struck north of Foster avenue then both Snorkel Squads 1 and 2 would be dispatcher there together.
I don’t know how far south Snorkel Squad 2 would respond on the Still and Box alarm.
Chicago’s Snorkels didn’t respond with more then 3 men on board. Several other cities would run their Snorkels as Truck companies and Philadelphia Pennsylvania still does.
On the May 16th 1965 Snorkel 1 which was Chicago’s 50 foot Snorkel and our first Snorkel was reassigned as the first piece of the new Snorkel Squad 3. If none of the Snorkel Squads had been dispatched on the Still and Box alarm then all three of them would be dispatched on the 2-11 alarm and if one of them was on the Still and Box alarm then the remaining two would be dispatched on the 2-11 alarm. The point is that all three Snorkel Squads would be dispatched on the same 2-11 alarms and there would also be a total of 3 regular Snorkel companies on the 2-11 alarms as well. There would be 6 (out of 9) Snorkels on the 2-11s and 7 (out of 9) on the 3-11 alarms.
The reason for having all of the Snorkel Squads being dispatched on the same 2-11’s is because they were the only fire companies at the time that were equipped with K-12 circular power saws and they were also the only companies with back mounted SCBA (self contained breathing apparatus). They also were the only companies that had multiversal nozzles as well.
In late 1967 ,1968 and 1969 the CFD started putting K-12 power saws on the Truck companies and Multiversals on some of the Engine companies.
As the new Trucks were being put in service ladder pipes were being put in service on Truck companies.
In 1969 Snorkel company 2 and Snorkel Squads 2 and 3 were taken out of service. Snorkel Squad 3 actually hadn’t been using a Snorkel since January 1967 when their 1958 GMC /Pitman Snorkel was stuck in a snow drift and Snorkel Squad 2 stopped using it’s Snorkel by mid 1968. As more of the Trucks were being equipped with Ladder pipes the Snorkels were slightly being de emphasized so the amount of Snorkels that were dispatched on the Still and Box Alarm were reduced from two to one by the early 1970’s.
While Snorkel 2 was taken out of service in February 1969 ,Snorkel 7 was destroyed when the wall of a burned out fire building collapsed on it on July 7th 1970 and Firefighter John Walsh was fatally injured. Snorkel 7 was not replaced with a new Snorkel and was taken out of service so Chicago went from 6 Snorkels and 3 Snorkel Squads in late 1966 to 4 Snorkels and 1 Snorkel Squad by August 1970.
So the Snorkel Squad concept in Chicago began about 25 years before Chicago ever put a Tower Ladder in service.
Less then a year after the Chicago fire fighters strike of 1980 Snorkel Squad 1 was taken of service however a fifth regular Snorkel company was put in service so that all of the 5 new Districts in the city proper could have both a separate Squad and Snorkel company assigned to each district in early 1981. In 1982 the districts were once again realigned and a 6th District was added so a 6th Squad and a 6th new Snorkel Company was put in service. The 6th District was put in service on Sept 2nd 1982 along with a major realignment and renumbering of the Battalions. Only about a year later on September 19th 2003 three of the Squads and three of the Snorkel companies in the city proper were taken out of service and the other 3 Squads and Snorkels were consolidated into 3 two piece Squad/Snorkel companies.
The reason for that is because the extra alarm fire rate had gone down os much that the Snorkel companies were going out that often so they felt that they and their manpower could be better utilized as part of Squad/Snorkel company. The three remaining Snorkels were used as unmanned reserve Snorkels.
At the time Tower Ladders were being built by manufacturers and more fire departments were starting to use them so in 1986 Chicago had put 6 new E/One Tower Ladders in service. One the reason why Chicago had bought Tower Ladders is because they were able to have a Aerial/ Platform equipped Truck company and therefore they were able use both the apparatus and the manpower assigned to them more effectively which is something that Chicago hadn’t done when they were running with Snorkel companies. The Tower Ladders had allowed them to run as Truck companies and as Aerial Platform companies instead of waiting around all week for an extra alarm fire to happen which is what the Snorkel companies were doing a few year earlier and as less extra alarms occured the less that Snorkels were put to use.
As the Tower Ladders were being put in service the CFD purchased smaller (55 foot) Snorkels for the Squad companies so that they could function like the Original Snorkel Squads of the 1960’s and 1970’s with a compact Snorkel that could fit in tight alleys and even in between tight courtyard style buildings.
#17 by CFD 1979 on October 7, 2013 - 5:40 PM
NJ and David, I completely agree with both of you but my concern is dispatching the Squads right away on a worker because most of the time, the fire is knocked before the snorkel can be even put to work. Coming from a long time truckman, we all know that the squad men are just “glorified ceiling pullers” during fires…….just kidding guys. Anyway the towers will usually be at the scene of a worker much before the squad will make it. Also, the towers will perform their usual truck company duties (S&R along with ventilation). Once these duties are complete, they will have more than enough time to set up a master stream.
#18 by David on October 7, 2013 - 1:38 PM
@CFD 1979: I think the main problem is that the TL would easily replace the Snorkel in certain situations (maybe most fires) but in certain situations it simply wouldn’t. The Snorkel is relatively small and lightweight compared to TL and can go to most places the TL can’t. In fact the Tower Ladder is simply a classic stick with a basket, theres no way a TL could reach over obstacles like the Snorkel. Also I’m not really sure why would the CFD use the snkl/squad concept for so many years simultaneously with the Tower Ladders if the TLs would fit for the role better than the snorkels.
#19 by NJ on October 7, 2013 - 10:46 AM
The advantage of the Squads at a fire is their snorkel can fit places a tower ladder cannot.
It would make sense to split the squads up into separate Squad and Snorkel Co’s. The snorkels could be crossed manned, thus this could be done without costing any more money. Since they are what’s really what’s needed at a fire, it makes little sense to tie up the whole squad. An extra engine could be sent for manpower if needed. This would be a better use of the limited squad resources, especially since they are the only units with airbags for extrications etc.
#20 by CFD 1979 on October 6, 2013 - 11:28 AM
What about dispatching the tower ladders on working fires to take some pressure off of the squads? The towers are much more useful and effective for a number of reasons than a snorkel would be on a squad company.
#21 by tom sullivan on October 5, 2013 - 7:25 AM
in my opinion, the squad companies in Chicago main reason for existence in these times, is for their special operations (technical rescue, haz mat, dive, etc.) capability.
with the response of 2 engs. & 2 trks. on a still, the “need” for manpower from the squads is not there. in about half the city if a fire is serious enough to require manpower and resources (hose, ladders, etc.) beyond a still, a box can be pulled and those companies will be there before a squad. the squad fire fighters are obviously highly trained and motivated people, by being sent to all working fires they are kept “in the game”.
#22 by Mike Mc on October 5, 2013 - 12:33 AM
Bill: Although LACityFD’s squads are officially hazardous materials companies, they were also four man companies that were used as flying squads in the high value areas, such as downtown and hollywood. At least that was the case when I was last there, which is quite a while ago now. They used to follow several engines on first alarm assignments, just like the old CFD flying squads, snorkel squads, and Autocar squads.
You are correct that rescue and extrication was not in their job description. They would be used as an extra company at the fire ground, usually given truck company duties. I got the impression that hazmat was a secondary role to justify their existence and the firefighters were much more interested in fire duty. Squad 4 was downtown, Squad 27 was in hollywood, and Squad 39 was in Van Nuys. Of course, things have changed since then and I believe there are only two dedicated squads left with two or three more that are actually jump companies manned by the task force in their quarters. I’m sure there is much more emphasis on the hazmat duties now.
The light forces (trucks) always had the primary responsibility for rescue and extrication, with additional tools and equipment being available from the HU (heavy utility) wrecker(s).
Fire Commissioner Galante started the two truck still alarm response in Chicago. I was told that number of runs and working fires for trucks was so low that Galante implemented the policy out of fear that some trucks would be placed out of service. Whatever the reason, it was a great idea.
It was one of the first of what I all the FDNY adoptions made by the CFD. There was once a time when Chicago would never, never copy anything New York did, even if it made perfect sense. The two truck still response was followed by: tower ladders, 5-1-1, Special Operations, upgraded high rise responses, 5-1-5 (rescue battalion) , RIT (FAST), bunker gear, special helmet shields for candidates, reflective shoulder stripes on fire coats, etc.
#23 by Bill Post on October 4, 2013 - 6:01 PM
Yes NJ at the very least Chicago should have several Truck companies that are near the edges of the Squads still districts that are equipped with (lifting type) air bags which are considered to be basic extrication equipment in many places.
They would be designated as Heavy Extrication Trucks.
Milwaukee has several Trucks that are so equipped and there are quite a few Trucks in the Houston fire department that designated at extrication Trucks.
All of the Los Angeles City fire departments Truck are equipped with air bags however in Los Angeles City they don’t run with Squads the way Chicago does. So the basic Rescue company there are the Trucks which are designated as Light Forces because most of their Trucks run with an Engine as it;s second piece that accompanies the Truck on all of it’s runs.
The Squads in Los Angeles City are really Hazardous Materials Squads and are not used as heavy rescue companies. Their Heavy Rescue company is really a Heavy duty Wrecker (tow truck) which has some power tools and a heavy duty Winch and a lifting crane. It runs with only 2 men and that helps explain why their Trucks (LIght Forces) are used as Rescue Squads. They do have 6 Heavy Rescue Style Box Squads which are designated as Urban Search and Rescue companies (USAR) all but one of them are driven to the scene and manned by the Light force that they are located with so it is not a fully manned company. The one USAR company (as they are referred to) that has a full time crew assigned to it but the crew size is only 2 men so it still needs to be cross manned by a Light Force once on the scene.
In New York City all of the 143 truck companies are also equipped with airbags.
Twenty five of New York Cities Ladder companies are designated as (Special Operation Command Support Ladders) where they have special Heavy rescue and Haz Mat training and are assigned a small enclosed Utility Van which they respond with only when they dispatched on a Special Operations type of incident. They are dispatched on confined space, building collapse and cave in and trench incidents and they are also special called to other special operations type of incidents when the nearest Rescue or Squad company is not available.
So the New York City specially designated Special Operations Ladder companies are pretty close to what you have in mind NJ.
Of course this is “pie in the sky” and Chicago can’t afford such a system however having a handful of Heavy Extrication Truck companies (with airbags) might be possible.
#24 by David on October 4, 2013 - 2:15 PM
Speaking of the 6-7-1, has anybody heard any news around the rig, are they really gonna find a new (used) chassis for the truck? Btw: I’d say that the Ford cabover would be definitely far better chassis for the deluge wagon than the Terrastar and some others somebody mentioned here before.
#25 by NJ on October 4, 2013 - 1:51 PM
Oh, and just to jump into it, 5-3-1’s chassis would do very nicely for 6-7-1. 🙂
#26 by NJ on October 4, 2013 - 1:49 PM
One other thing CFD should do is to equip at least some of the Truck Co’s with the specialized rescue equipment currently only on the Squads. That too would ease some of the pressure on them.
#27 by Bill Post on October 4, 2013 - 12:09 PM
NJ there is no question that Chicago could use an additional Squad company on the south side to help shrink Squad 5’s very large and relative busy district, however most of the working fires in Squad 5’s district are further east and south of Midway airport and the 16th Battalion.
As you know the primary function of the Squad companies in Chicago are their “special operations” equipment and training and to provide additional manpower assistance at working fires.
Due to the size of Squad 5’s district a better case can be made for the additional (south side Squad company) to be put on service further south of Squad 5’s present area. That would also make Squad 5 more available to respond into the 16th Battalion (MIdway) when needed.
Chicago at one time ran with 13 (conventional ) Squad companies until they were fazed out during the 1960’s.
From 1969 until the fire fighters strike in early 1980 Chicago had also run with mainly 7 Flying Manpower Squads and our former Snorkel Squad 1 however within a few months after the strike Snorkel Squad 1 was taken out of service along with two of the seven Flying Manpower Squads and the remaining five Flying Squads were re designated as regular Squad companies.
When the five new (district numbered) Squads were put in service in 1980 there was a major change made in dispatching procedures for the Squads. The Squads from then on would only be dispatched on a confirmed or a working fire.
Traditionally in Chicago the Squad companies (including the Snorkel Squads, the Salvage Squads and the Flying Manpower Squads) would be automatically dispatched on reported fires along with the Still Engines and Truck company in their districts. Quite often the Squads would be held by the first arriving companies.
Even though after the fire fighters strike the Squads would then wait for a confirmation of a bona fide fire before being dispatched another important change was also made in the early 1980’s and that was going from One Truck to Two Truck still alarms. By dispatching a second Truck on all still alarms in Chicago it took pressure off of the remaining Squad companies.
The second Truck would in effect fill in the gap left by not having the Squads automatically dispatched on the still and by having a second Truck respond the response time would also be reduced as the second Truck usually would be able to beat the Squad to the scene of the fire as there were about twelve times as many Trucks as there were Squads.
That was one of smartest things that Chicago Fire Department ever did.
#28 by NJ on October 4, 2013 - 9:00 AM
Bill, fully agree about the reserve crash wagons. One of the main issues with CFD (and this ties partly into the culture of not using MABAS except as a last resort) is that a lot of specialty apparatus are few and very far between. One would have good reason to worry should an unexpected crash occur at Midway for example. It would take a looong time for the O’Hare rigs to get there to help. By the time they did they would be far too late for primary help.
I know money is always an issue, but putting reserve crash wagons in a few houses around the city would be very wise. As would adding an additional airport Squad company near Midway, which would have the added benefit of being able to reorganize the response areas of the existing overworked squads (especially 5).
And yes, I know as long as I’m dreaming……..
#29 by Mike Mc on October 4, 2013 - 8:47 AM
With regard to the third airport style high capacity tank engine on order, is it possible that we will see Engine 118 (Midway) return and not Engine 12 (O’Hare)? Engine 118 could face the tarmac at 127’s house and be a dedicated airport asset.
#30 by Bill Post on October 4, 2013 - 2:54 AM
I know that as part of the “Foam Task Force” usually a large crash wagon Engine 9 and Squad 7 would respond to incidents in the city such as gas station fires and fuel tanker accidents. For a relatively short period of time in the 1990’s the CFD did have at least two or three reserve Crash wagons located off of the airport properties at stations that were located near the expressway system. There was a reserve Crash Wagon at Engine 34 (which really wasn’t far from Midway airport and was near the Stevenson expressway. Engine 106 also did have a reserve crash wagon and Engine 80 did have an older Ford pumper from around 1967 that was out fitted with Foam and some dry chemical. That company had been shifted around the south side several times from Engine 127 to Engine 34 to Engine 80. I am not completely sure if Engine 80 may also have had reserve crash wagon for a short time as well. I do know that Engine 80 did have an International Harvester Dry Chemical wagon from around 1967 at it’s quarters.
The 6 rebuilt (former 1970 Ward La France ) 2000 gpm pumpers were out fitted with 140 gallon foam tanks when they were rebuilt by E/One and Ranger but they didn’t really last very long. I really don’t know how often they special call the Bulk Foam vehicle at Engine 28 but it is good unit to have.
It may make sense for the CFD to once again locate a few spare crash Wagons around the city near some expressways and industrial zones where they could be used as Foam tenders on major Hazmat incidents.
New York City runs with a custom built Foam Tender and the Los Angeles City fire department runs with 4 of them. Houston, Phoenix and Philadelphia all run with specifically equipped foam pumpers which arin some cases aare co located with HazMat companies. New York City has a fleet of former front line Engines that have been equipped as special Foam Engines and are colocated with active Engine companies where they are special called when needed on some incidents.
If they had at least one Foam Tender in the city proper then they might not have to always send a “Foam Task Force” from O”Hare Field.
#31 by Bill Post on October 4, 2013 - 12:35 AM
Mike Mc in answer to your question about Bedford Park being included in a Still and Box standby at Midway I think that it would make sense to have their nearest station included. In fact if you remember in August when I was commenting on the “Down memory lane article” and I had mentioned the “in house “study that was done by the Chicago FIre Department that study did recommend that were places in the city that should have “automatic” mutual aide and of one those areas was Bedford Park covering the Midway airport area.
I would be concerned with more then just Midway airport. I personally think that the entire Clearing and Garfield Ridge area which would be most of Engine 32’s and Engine 127’s districts should get automatic mutual aide and not only from Station 2 on the 5100 block of 67th street in Bedford Park but also from the Central Stickney fire department at 50th and Lotus which is also a few blocks from Chicago.If Engine 32 Truck 60 and Engine 127 are tied up it is good distance for the second due or the cover companies to respond up into that part of the city.
#32 by Mike Lopina on October 3, 2013 - 8:21 PM
@ FFPM571- Wow. 21 years ago… Doesn’t seem like that long ago. Either way, it brought suburban rigs in.
@ Bill P- Not sure why they go but they do. Nothing on the Squad that the other squads have. Squad 7A is the twin to 6-3-7 so it’s not for the “mini”… The O’Hare rigs don’t go to Midway unless it’s bonifide; not automatic on a stand-by. I do believe they also headed down to LSD last weekend for the single engine plane that landed along the lakefront. As for Engine 127 getting an “Airport” engine, not sure if that’s in the plan as 127 has a considerable district off the airfield. And you’re showing your age by calling it “Division” 3… LOL!!! Seriously, though, your insight and knowledge of the fire service on here is appreciated. Thank you!
#33 by Bill Post on October 3, 2013 - 7:56 PM
Mike Lopina thanks for the information especially on Squad 7 and Engine 9 responding to Midway). I kind of suspected that as both Midway and O”Hare are technically speaking in Division 3 (the airport Division).
Dispatching Engine 9 and Squad 7 to Midway seems to be ridiculous however and since the city is ordering more then just two Airport style High Capacity pumpers perhaps one of them could be assigned to Midway AIrport (perhaps as Engine 127) if they really have that much of a need for a High Capacity pumper to respond to Midway. Aside from perhaps training purposes and after the fact critique I really don’t see what is to be gained by sending Squad 7 and Engine 9 to Midway.
If Squad 7 has special “airport gear” that Squad 5 or the other Squads don’t have then why don’t they just put a special “Airport Squad” vehicle in service at Midway. They don’t even have to man it. When they actually would need the “Airport Squad” at Midway they can have Squad 5 man it when Squad 5 or another company arrives at Midway. Squad 5 would still beat Squad 7 to the scene. I realize that Squad 5 would normally go to Midway but why would they even dispatch Squad 7 except for the reasons that I mentioned? To dismantle the wrecked Airplane?
#34 by FFPM571 on October 3, 2013 - 7:03 PM
Mike, the EMS plan at O’Hare for the car into the crowd of kids was in 1992, I was there with Bensenville. TP
#35 by Mike Lopina on October 3, 2013 - 2:13 PM
@ Mike & Brian-CFD does use mutual aid for O’Hare & Midway; just not right away. They also use what they call the “Peppers” box which is for private ambulances above & beyond a plan III and suburban ambs. Suburban ambs responded into ORD about 15 years ago when that car plowed into the kids taking a tour of the airport. Suburban Fire companies also come in for a plane crash but not right away.
As far as staffing goes, they are short (1) truck on the still (Trk 9 is 2nd truck). If they have an accident on the field, they are quickly overwhelmed with only the 2 Engs, 1 TL & 1 Sqd; thus a still & box & Plan I being requested. The crews on the ARFF rigs do not leave (Engineer & Gunner or ARFF Commander) the rig so you only have 18 people (Eng 9, 10 & Sqd 7 engineers don’t count) available to assist/rescue 100-300 passengers if they are not able to self evac and only 90 seconds to do it if the plane is on fire. As for Midway, “city” companies are much closer and the size of airfield and aircraft does not require as much ARFF equipment as required at O’Hare. With that said, Midway offers protection above and beyond Index “C” requirements as Eng 127 (5) 6-3-7 (2) 6-3-5 (1) 6-5-1 (2) & 6-5-2 (2) have a total of 12 personnel on site vs the FAA 139 requirement of only 4 or 5 for an Index C airport. Eng 32,34,88 Trk 60,31 & TL 54 are close to Midway so it is well protected. 2-7-8, Eng 9 & Sqd 7 also respond to Midway in the event of a crash; just takes them a while….
#36 by Brian on October 3, 2013 - 12:13 PM
Mike, Your question about MABAS being included at OHare and Midway are valid. Why not use the resources that are closer and in the event of an emergency may actually be in those towns jurisdiction.
#37 by Mike Mc on October 3, 2013 - 9:56 AM
I’m going to stir up some controversy here by asking a few questions. I’m sure there are valid reasons why O’Hare operates the way it does, but maybe it is time for the powers to be to think outside the box.
1. In view of all the apparatus and staffing at O’Hare, is the still and box for a stand-by still necessary? Would a still alarm with a plan one be sufficient, with the exception of the most serious declared emergencies? I’ve been to a lot of cities and I don’t recall ever hearing more than an engine and a truck being sent to the airport on the radio. (San Diego, Boston, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, San Francisco, New York). Retired chief fire alarm opeartor Ken Little once told me that the still and box at O’Hare started because the airport, when opened, was isolated and a long way from city firehouses. Things have changed since then.
2. If the still and box is necessary, shouldn’t MABAS be used to help fill out the box? Rosemont, Bensenville, Des Plaines, Schiller Park, and Franklin Park are not only closer, but most of them receive training at O’Hare … right? In some cases, depending on the runway, the plane that declared the emergency would fly almost literally over their fire station(s).
3. Is Midway, with two crash rigs, under protected? FAA compliant of course, but still inadequate?
4. Should Bedford Park be included in the still and box for stand-bys at Midway?
Feel free to hammer away.
#38 by danny on September 20, 2013 - 5:29 PM
as far as i know current the spartan lettered for 12 at ohare is used as squad 7s spare since they dont have a full time spare and prior i believe they used one of the old e one enignes since the city sold off the spartan gladiator they had previously
#39 by Bill Post on September 20, 2013 - 9:40 AM
The putting of Engine 12 back in service definitely makes sense to me as that also helps to explain why more then only 2 E/One crash pumpers are being ordered.
They would be smarter if they gave the Spartan/Erv that is numbered for Engine 12 to Engine 9 as Station 3 (Engine 9’s quarters) is adjacent to the terminals and the expressway and roadway access and having a smaller and more maneuverable Engine would be better for those areas while the larger (Super Capacity Crash/ Engines) are better suited to be located at the Stations that are adjacent to the Runways and Hangars. Since Engine 9 is located near the Terminals and goes out on more EMS and accident runs it just makes more sense to run with a smaller Engine as the larger Super Capacity Engines are much larger and not as manueverable.
#40 by Mike Lopina on September 19, 2013 - 5:47 PM
All that is certain now as far as firehouses go is that Rescue 2 (Hanger Row) will have to be torn down and relocated as it is in the middle of future runway 9-27 Center. Rescue 1 is tucked in between soon to open 10-28 Center and future 10 (right)-28 (left) and may be getting an addition put on so it can house more rigs. Rescue 4 may be relocated/rebuilt at some point as well. Discussion (rumors) at one point was that there may be as many as 6 stations once all 6 runways are done but that is not likely . More than likely it will be 5 but the location of the 5th is not yet decided. There are several 4500’s either being built or being designed. The 4 E-One engines are going to be ordered soon per the bid opening. Another discussion (AKA Rumor) is that Engine 12 will once again be organized and placed in service at Rescue 1 but I am not sure if that is dependant on the addition being built or if they are going to try to shoehorn it in there next month when 10-28 Center opens.
#41 by tom sullivan on September 19, 2013 - 8:01 AM
O’Hare has had for many years the capability to respond to two separate “standbys” or other a/c incidents (and non a/c events too) simultaneously. there have been times when this has happened. with the addition of city companies on a box response, there is plenty of help, although distance and traffic delays can be a factor. the fire protection & ems at O’Hare has improved steadily over the years, from the days of e-10 being a 1920’s era “combination ” pumper !
#42 by Drew Smith on September 18, 2013 - 7:54 PM
Here are the FAA requirements:
§ 139.319 Aircraft rescue and firefighting: Operational requirements.
(h) Response requirements.
(1) With the aircraft rescue and firefighting equipment required and the number of trained personnel that will assure an effective operation…
(i) Respond to each emergency during periods of air carrier operations
(2) The response required by paragraph (h)(1) of this section must achieve the following performance criteria:
(i) Within 3 minutes from the time of the alarm, at least one required ARFF vehicle must reach the midpoint of the farthest runway from its assigned post and begin application of extinguishing agent.
There is also an Index requirement under part 139. O’Hare is an Index E and that requires at least three vehicles;
One vehicle carrying at least 500 pounds of sodium-based dry chemical or clean agent; or 450 pounds of potassium-based dry chemical and water with a commensurate quantity of AFFF to total 100 gallons for simultaneous dry chemical and AFFF application.
and
Two vehicles carrying an amount of water and the commensurate quantity of AFFF so the total quantity of water for foam production carried by all three vehicles is at least 6,000 gallons.
Each vehicle with a minimum-rated vehicle water tank capacity of at least 2,000 gallons must have a turret discharge rate of at least 600 gallons per minute, but not more than 1,200 gallons per minute.
At Indianapolis’ airport, one of the two ARFF stations is in the “crotch” of two runways. Prior to airport expansion about 10 years ago, this station was a 6.5 mile drive from the main terminal yet less than a mile away as the crow flies in order to meet the FAA requirement.
#43 by Bill Post on September 18, 2013 - 5:22 PM
I was wondering if anyone might know the long term plans for O”Hare Field as far as new firestations go? I have heard some rumors here and there but nothing specific. As the airport is in the midst of an expansion and runway realignment program there had some some reports of them building some new stations however some of them may be replacements for the current stations (due to runway relocations). If you look at the way the airport and the runways are supposed to look like after the expansion program you can see where more fire stations would probably be needed. The current station 4 is actually the old station 2. Dallas/Fort Worth International recently opened a 6th firestation and Hartsfield International Airport in Atlanta Geogia runs with 5 stations and has been the busiest airport for most the 2000’s now.
The new airport in Denver (which is the largest in terms of area) runs with 4 firestations. Many large airports run with more then one station due to the runway and terminal layouts.
#44 by Mike Lopina on September 17, 2013 - 8:30 PM
Yes they do, Chris. All except 2-9-14 have new F-150 Super Crew cabs. 2-9-14 is still in an old blazer.
#45 by chris on September 15, 2013 - 11:04 PM
looks like 298/2912 have new units
#46 by Midwest Medic on September 9, 2013 - 9:29 PM
Cool. Thanks Mike.
#47 by Mike Lopina on September 9, 2013 - 12:22 PM
Orland (Div 19) supplied the engine for handlines on that day’s training; Lockport, Sugar Grove & Waukegan ARFF for ARFF training & the Div 19/22 Haz-Mat Team to train on the “pit” for flammable liquid fires.
#48 by Midwest Medic on September 8, 2013 - 11:35 PM
I understand why Lockport was there, but what was Orland doing?
#49 by Mike Lopina on September 8, 2013 - 3:35 PM
They told me it has been disposed of. The MCI bus (8-8-1) is also at the AMC building as Rescue 1 is packed tight. The east bays hold the 3 crash rigs and a spare buggy while the west bays are wall to wall packed with TL63, Amb26, 2-7-8, 5-1-2 & 5-3-1. And 9-2-4 is back in service after being out for a while.
#50 by Chris S. on September 8, 2013 - 2:53 PM
Do they still have the other trailer that went w/ 5-3-1