This from Larry Shapiro:
After seeing the photos from Fleet Guy of the two 1985 E-ONE tower ladders that remain in the CFD spare pool, I thought I’d share an image of one when it was brand new. Assigned to Tower Ladder 39, this was on display in the Daley Center Plaza for Fire Prevention Week in 1985 before it was placed in service. E-238, E-4335 for this rig.
Chicago Tower Ladder 39 – 1985 E-ONE Hurricane 95′ RM 0/0. Larry Shapiro photo
#1 by mike mc on December 16, 2016 - 9:10 AM
You got me there Bill, yes I was referring to Mack aerialscopes as tower ladders, primarily because the FDNY called them tower ladders. The CFD would have been better off using a dozen or so aerialscopes as truck companies in the late 60’s and 70’s than they were operating snorkels as special companies. At one point the CFD was operating with only five snorkels (including SS-1) with only one snorkel on the entire south side. Because Commissioner Quinn developed the snorkel he failed – or refused – to see that the FDNY had a much better idea. Of course, Quinn would also had to have purchased new apparatus, something that he was always very reluctant to do. That is how he held down the budget because the simple fact was the city could not afford (or would not properly fund) the Daley day when it was implemented. When the rigs broke down left and right in the late 60’s and he was forced to purchase apparatus he came up with the four man companies supported by a flying squad concept for most of the city, again, to hold down the budget. I have a feeling we are watching history repeat itself right now, at least with regard to apparatus.
I do believe Supthen was producing a true tower ladder by the early 1970’s.
#2 by David on December 16, 2016 - 7:16 AM
Bill, thanks a lot for your reply! I was curious about this as in some cases the CFD relies on (spare) rigs that are 30 years old, so I was wondering if there’s actually any ceiling for this.
#3 by Bill Post on December 16, 2016 - 2:44 AM
David no your question isn’t stupid. The 18th edition of the National Fire Protection Association Handbook states that “The older apparatus may be maintained as part of the required reserve as long as it is in good condition but in almost no case should much reliance be placed on any apparatus more than 25 years of age.”
The National Fire Protection Association Handbook also recommends “that a reserve fleet range in size from 25 to 30 percent of the frontline equipment including ladder trucks, rescue trucks, and ambulances.”
#4 by Bill Post on December 16, 2016 - 2:20 AM
Mike Mc I was wondering that when you had said that the CFD took “20 years to be exact” to conclude that a few tower ladders are better then specialized Snorkels” if you would have done things differently? The 20 years earlier would have been 1965/66 as Chicago put it’s first Tower Ladders in service in 1985/86. Are you saying that you would have designated the Snorkel’s as “Truck company’s” like Philadelphia, Memphis and other cities did? Would you have had Chicago purchase “Aerialscopes” like New York CIty started doing as they had also ran their “Tower Ladders” as Truck company’s? The Aerialscopes were in reality telescopic Snorkels. The True “Tower Ladders” weren’t really developed until the mid to late 1970’s and they didn’t really “take off” until the 1980’s. Even the Sutphen Aerial Towers weren’t True Tower Ladders with a real Aerial Ladder on them Chicago probably could have speced their full sized Snorkels with cabinets and more ladder racks on them so they conceivably could have been used as Truck companies however in the 1960s and 70’s they were still pretty busy responding to extra alarm fires for their Snorkels.
The Los Angeles City Fire Department actually did have 2 full sized 85 foot Snorkels for few years however on July 5th 1970 their Snorkel 3 had flipped over while extended and a fire fighter was killed so the large Snorkels were taken out of service and sold. It was found out however that after an investigation the reason for the accident was that one of the out riggers wasn’t properly extended. As you had mentioned the Los Angeles City Fire Department did continue using 4 50 foot Snorkels that were mounted on pumper bodies where they were part of 4 Heavy Duty Task Forces until 1978 when there were major cuts in the Los Angeles City Fire Department due to California’s infamous Proposition 13 which was passed by the state legislature. Two of those small Snorkels survived into the 80s but are no longer around. To this day the Los Angeles City Fire Department has never owned or used a Tower Ladder and they currently don’t own any elevating platforms no matter what type it is. The San Diego City fire department had been running a Snorkel as their Truck company 14 until it was replaced in 2007 by a straight rear mounted Aerial Ladder, however.
#5 by mike mc on December 15, 2016 - 1:00 PM
Thanks Bill. Pat Kehoe, the former chief of fire suppression and coincidentally a FF on SS-1 and a lieutenant on SS-2, was another major player in keeping snorkel squads. He advocated ordering new snorkels and squad boxes every five years or so in order to make sure you had useful and operating rigs and you don’t have to use a bunch of spares. Too bad they did not listen to him after he retired!
Fire Commissioner Hoff, who was on SS-1 as a candidate, and SOC Chief Mike Fox, whose father was a lieutenant on SS-2, may have been more recent players in keeping the snorkels.
Commissioners Galante, Altman, and Hoff were all on SS-1. Current commissioner Santiago was on Squad 2. That’s a pretty good percentage of the last several commissioners, which included a paramedic.
#6 by Bill Post on December 15, 2016 - 11:40 AM
MIke Mc it is funny you mentioned that Louis Galante wanted to bring back the Snorkel squads both for efficiency and because he had served on an SS unit. If you recall when Ray Orozco senior was commissioner, in 1996 the CFD ordered an HME/Saulsbury single-piece heavy rescue squad (the current spare). He had it replace Squad 1 and for about four years Squad 1 ran without a Snorkel. I can’t help but wonder if he had remained as commissioner for several more years would he have also made Squads 2 and 5 into straight squad companies without Snorkels. It is apparent that he wasn’t a fan of the Snorkel squad concept. When Edward Altman became the commissioner in late 1996, he saw to it that the CFD ordered three two-piece Snorkel squad sets so that all the city squads would be Snorkel Squads. Had Raymond E Orozco stayed on as the fire commissioner until 2000, I don’t think that Chicago’s squads would have remained Snorkel squads.
#7 by mike mc on December 15, 2016 - 10:47 AM
Thanks Bill, I figured you would have some thoughts on the subject. I don’t know why Blair was so obtuse about the response districts. LA City had three squad companies when he was there and they basically operated as flying squads. LA City had no snorkels (except 2nd piece engines) or tower ladders so he probably thought they were not important. You might think that he knew better but purposely did things to anger and antagonize people. Sadly, there is probably a lot of truth in that since Mayor Byrne hired him for what many considered to be the primary purpose of punishing the department after the strike. Many will say that he did his best to do exactly that.
Lou Galante wanted to bring back the three snorkel squads. Too bad he did not name them as such.
#8 by Bill Post on December 15, 2016 - 2:32 AM
Mike Mc, I do agree with you that the CFD response policy having the “Old” Snorkel Companies and the Squad companies ( as well) running districts based solely on the Districts that they were located in was ridiculous at best and dangerous at worst. A fire and ems units running district should always be based on the nearest unit and who can be first on the scene according to direct accessibility. In cases where the Snorkel or the Squad company is actually in the geographic center of the district and normally would be the closest such unit to the scene of the emergency would be the exception.
One of the best examples that I can think of is CFD 2nd District after it was realigned after September 1982. At that time the 2nd District consisted of Battalions 5 (at Engine 55) Battalion 6 (at Engine 57), Battalion 7 (at Engine 91 and Battalion 8 (at Engine 125). One if the major problems is that Snorkel 2 was located on the east end of the District (at Engine 55’s quarters) and Squad 2 was located on the West End of the District (at Engine 68’s quarters) and Squad 2 would be dispatched as far north east as Lake Shore Drive and Irving Park road on both “Pin Ins” and on “working fires” despite the fact that Squad 3 was much closer to the scene as they were located at Engine 110’s house but because that location(off of Irving Park) was in the 2nd District and not the 3rd District Squad 2 would be dispatched from much further away. An even more glaring example of what I am talking about is 6th Battalion whose district had included a small portion of the westside where it’s boundary line went as far south as Central Park and Vanburen at the north east corner , if you had a Still and Box Alarm at Kedzie and Madison ,the Squad that would be dispatched would be Squad 2 from Engine 68’s house and the Snorkel that would be dispatched would be Snorkel 2 from Engine 55’s house despite that fact that Squad 4 was located only a mile away at Engine 95’s station and Snorkel 4 was located about a mile and a half away at Engine 107’s house and the only reason why they didn’t normally dispatch Squad 4 and Snorkel 4 to Madison and Kedzie was because that location was officially in the 2nd District and not in the 4th District.
I don’t think that that was the was the reason why the new Fire Commissioner Lewis Galante took half of the Snorkels and half of the Squads out of service a year later though. All that he would have had to do was to redraw the district’s of those companies to have the nearest ones respond. The real reason that half of the Snorkels and half of the Squads located in the city proper were taken out of service is because the fire rate had gone down and the Snorkels weren’t nearly as busy as they were in the 1960’s and 70’s.
Do you remember that from around 1961/62 until 1969/70 , 2 Snorkel companies would normally be dispatched on Still and Box Alarms and most areas would also get a Snorkel Squad as well. In 1965 after Snorkel Squad 3 was put in service a 2-11 alarm would have a total of 6 out of 9 Snorkels dispatched to the scene and a 3-11 would have 7 out of 9 Snorkels on the scene of the incident because all 3 Snorkel Squads would be due on the same 2-11 alarms citywide and one full sized Snorkel would be dispatched on a 2-11 and a 3-11 alarm each, in addition to the 2 full sized Snorkels that would automatically be dispatched on Still and Box Alarms. Back then very few Truck companies were equipped with Ladder Pipes and only the Snorkel Squads were equipped with Multiversals as well as modern SCBA’s and power saws.
#9 by David on December 14, 2016 - 3:32 PM
This may be a stupid question but are there any other requirements for the spares other than they have to be functional, I mean that the frontline rigs shouldn’t be more than 15 – max 20 yrs old, so does something like that apply for the spares as well?
#10 by CFD Guy on December 14, 2016 - 1:38 PM
Tower Ladder Spares
7 spares for the city and 1 spare for ORD
E248
E250
E252
E264
E265 EX TOWER 34 1988 EONE
E280 EX TOWER 39 1996 HME
E281 EX TOWER 37 1996 HME
AVF128 EX TOWER 63 1996 PIERCE
#11 by Michael M on December 14, 2016 - 12:46 PM
I agree why not scrap the 1985 E-ones and use the 1996’s as spares? I am sure the 1996’s are in better shape than the 1985’s. Hopefully the city will purchase more towers in the next few years and they will be able to put the remaining 1996 and a Pierce or two in the spare pool.
#12 by Aidan Hughes on December 13, 2016 - 4:14 PM
They got more than two back then. Tower 10 had a rig like that at one point. As of now, The spare E-One tower ladders from the 1980s are in bad condition, especially Tower 34’s old E-One tower ladder. Now they have a newly numbered rig that was a hand me down from Tower 14. Chicago had tower ladders for 31 years now. When my dad was on the job, it was Truck 5 that ran a 1972 Mack CF/Pirsch 100’RM aerial, then in 1988, Tower 5 received its first ever tower ladder, a 1988 E-One 95’RM tower ladder along with another one assigned to Tower 34. The ones from 1985 had open cabs, but the 1988 E-One tower ladders had closed cabs. Now they have three new E-One 100’RM tower ladders for Tower 14, Tower 37, and Tower 39. When Tower 14 got their new rig earlier this year, they gave their 2002 Pierce Dash tower ladder to Tower 34. Tower 34’s newer truck is in great condition than the other E-One tower ladder assigned to them. Just about all the E-One 95′ RM tower ladders from the 80s are really old and are in bad condition. They are starting to wear out. They should be sent for scrap.
#13 by mike mc on December 13, 2016 - 12:39 PM
It took the CFD a long time (20 years to be exact) to conclude that a few tower ladders are better than specialized snorkels. They can be used as trucks and do not require a special company. The snorkels tied up an officer, engineer, and FF and could perform no other function. If Fire Commissioner William Blair had not screwed up the snorkel’s response district by having them respond only to fires within their district instead of a logical still and box district, it might have been another ten years or so until the CFD obtained tower ladders. Philadelphia and some other cities operate(d) snorkels as trucks but Chicago never did. The amount of time needed to raise the boom and the cost of the rig were reasons for it.
#14 by john on December 13, 2016 - 11:21 AM
E-248. It’s still in service as a spare…2 motors and 3 trans’s later. Actually, it has one of the quickest mains; the hydraulics, although I’m sure also worked over a few times, is good.
#15 by CrabbyMilton on December 13, 2016 - 8:21 AM
Looks good and nice background,