This from Daniel Hynd:
Naperville has awarded the bid for a new ladder truck to replace Truck 9 to Global Emergency Products.
| File #: | 19-424 Version: 1 |
| Type: | Award of bid, rfp, etc. | Status: | Passed |
| File created: | 4/26/2019 | In control: | City Council |
| On agenda: | 6/4/2019 | Final action: | 6/4/2019 |
| Title: | Approve the award of Cooperative Procurement 19-156, Unit 322 Ladder Truck Replacement, to Global Emergency Products for an amount not to exceed $1,350,000 |
#1 by Tim on June 24, 2019 - 4:52 PM
Localguy i’m not sure of the specifics but Pierce sued E-one over stolen proprietary computer programming for ladder controls and won.
#2 by Bill Post on June 24, 2019 - 4:22 PM
Anthony R, Pierce is still the king out west. As you mentioned, a majority of the large West Coast fire depts have gone to Pierce over the last several years, several with big orders. Seattle’s new tillered aerial fleet is almost exclusively Pierce as well as many of their new engines. The Los Angeles County Fire Department is mainly KME and has been for a while. The Los Angeles City Fire Department has some newer KME engines, but they have been going to Pierce for engines and to replace their American LaFrance TDAs. While they still have some Seagrave engines, those are from the early 2000s. Apparently they aren’t happy with their KMEs because after getting two batches of them they decided to go back to Pierce. LA hasn’t ordered any Seagrave ladders in about 30 years. San Diego has become exclusively Pierce after trying out some KME engines which were on a leased program which they having been getting rid of.
Houston had been an E/one town until the mid 2000’s, but as of now they have SpartanErv and Ferrara. They still have quite a few E/one trucks and engines that they are phasing out. Even though Houston has been gradually replacing their older fleet they have had problems over the last few years keeping their fleet running. San Antonio and Austin have both become Pierce towns and Dallas seems to be heading in that direction also.
As far as New York City goes, you mentioned they think Ferrara is junk, yet they have been giving them repeat orders for ladders. Seagrave used to be their exclusive supplier for ladders and engines. Now they get engines from KME and pumper/squads from Seagrave. New York City seems to be happy with Ferrara for their rescues, haz mat, and other special operations rigs and the proof is that they keep giving Ferrara orders. They are replacing their five rescue companies with Ferrara products for the second time. It is known that New York City has pretty demanding specs and the tough overall conditions for their fire apparatus.
Anthony, the Pierce rescue that was assigned to Rescue 1 has been a spare for at least 8 years and they never ordered any more of them. I also understand that Pierce and New York City have very little to do with each other at least partly because of New York’s demanding specs. The Seagrave products that New York still buys are Aerialscopes, the tillered aerial ladders, and pumper/squads. The rear mounted Seagrave aerials are seen less and less as they are replaced by Ferrara ladders.
Keep your eye on Rosenbauer as they seem to be slowly moving up.
#3 by Matt McCrory on June 24, 2019 - 3:38 PM
Bill Post; Philadelphia is ordering 75′ Seagrave Aerialscopes. Anthony R; PFD has had very limited experience with Pierce products over the last 50 years. Pumpers on a commercial chassis in 1970, Mini Pumpers on commercial chassis in 1975 / 1976 and a Snorkel rebuild on a glider kit in the mid 1990s. Word was that Pierce was never comfortable with the contract language in the bid package.
#4 by Anthony R on June 23, 2019 - 10:37 PM
The fdny isn’t as high on the scopes as you think they are or seagrave in general out of all the apparatus they have had since the 90’s they like them the best though follewed by Kme. They Think the ferrara ladders are junk though and rescue one is one their pierce or e-one reserve piece. Dc is about half pierce , half seagrave apparatus. They have a few spartan/LTI tillers though. Louisville is seagrave city. Lexington is the opposite they run half E-one, pierce and sutphen. Boston is e-one , pierce and kme(didn’t like em took all of the trucks with maxxforce engines out of frontline service. Philly is Kme Alf and Spartan etc… Dallas is spartan switching to pierce though the guys don’t like the spartans (Low Bids). Fortworth is smeal,rosenbuarer and switching to pierce. Houston is all over the place. Portland, Seattle amd sandiego is pierce. LA is seagrave kme and pierce. San Fran is spartan and ferrara.
#5 by Bill Post on June 23, 2019 - 10:10 PM
Localguy, as you know FDNY swears by them and was the department that started using them in 1964. In the 1980s, FDNY bought and tested two other types and decided to stay with the Aerialscope. Of course each city has their own conditions and needs so what is good for one is not always good for another. They were originally built only as a 75-foot model however in the 1980s New York started looking for taller towers. They purchased two Sutphen mid-mounts and two LTI rear mounts on low profile America LaFrance chassis. Then they purchased two 95-foot Aerialscopes. After testing all three styles, they stuck with the Aerialscope. Because of size, weight, and clearance restrictions in many of their fire houses, to this day only 15 of their 61 tower ladders are 95 footers while the remaining 46 are 75 footers. At one time Milwaukee ran with a 75-foot Aerialscope at Ladder 3 and a large Snorkel at Ladder 1, but that was in the late 60’s and 70’s. If there were any other Midwest departments with Aerialscopes there weren’t many.
Washington DC’s only tower ladder is a 95-foot Aerialscope. Many consider Sutphen towers to have very good quality. Wheeling had two Sutphen towers but most recently purchased a Rosenbauer rear-mount.
#6 by Anthony R on June 23, 2019 - 9:50 PM
Yeah i’m only 19 ,From what i heard from a volunteer(Lancaster responding is his channel) in Pa is everyone’s been declining recently except E-one( Gonna get the most in orders in from what i’ve seen). The area he works in runs mostly seagrave and pierce and he says both are declining but both still put out some good trucks. Sutphen has been growing from what i’ve seen too. The thing with seagrave is they aren’t used to all the orders they are getting so they might be rushing the trucks. Pierce’s problem is the management(Heard the treat the employees like trash need new management). @Localguy Thats not true lol but i know you hate pierce because they aren’t great in your area. Imo the most underrated manufacture is marion. My favorites are pierce, seagrave sutphen and marion. I Know alot of you hate pierce granted they do have alot of issues in your area But what is you all’s favorite Manufacturer ?
#7 by Mike on June 23, 2019 - 9:03 PM
Anthony R, I think you have me confused with someone else. Not sure how old you are but pierce has been declining since the mid 2000’s when they got really popular and started building cookie cutters. Do I like seagraves, sure, but I’m not drooling over them. I actually prefer smaller manufacturers because they actually build something more to your spec and seem to take more pride in their work as they’re not rushed through assembly to make another cookie cutter. Personally I’m surprised that Smeal isn’t being looked at more as they offer their own ladder design and also own the patent to LTI.
#8 by Localguy on June 23, 2019 - 8:39 PM
So….my dept just ordered a 100ft midmount spartan smeal platform. But…I gotta say I’m excited to see the new PFD aerialscopes. Those are in my opinion the baddest platform ever. Oh and I agree the pierce ascendant ladder is junk. All lines of it.
#9 by Andy on June 23, 2019 - 6:47 PM
The new truck is a 100ft. RM platform on a Velocity chassis. Assignments for the remaining aerials will be determined at a later date.
#10 by Anthony R on June 23, 2019 - 5:34 PM
Yeah the ascendant isn’t garbage. Philly canceled the tower order because they had a problem with their non ascendant ladders swinging out too much on the backside i think. They gave the new tower order to seagrave. They have always had bad luck with pierce i am told . Kme and pierce are the only two manufactures that meet their tiller specs. @Mike If i remember you are the guy that has this crazy bias to seagrave and thinks the can’t make bad trucks luck other manufacturers that is false.
Examples:
http://www.emtbravo.net/topic/6697-big-problems-with-fdny-firetrucks/#comment-36464
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G5JolK9NUA
look at roberts comment
http://www.emtbravo.net/topic/29224-mount-vernon-ladder-truck-down-again/#comment-162895
#11 by Jim B on June 23, 2019 - 4:52 PM
Sorry, but just a few more comments on this issue. As I can recall, for years Naperville has never been tied into any one manufacturer for their fire apparatus.
They have purchased from several manufacturers for many years. Certainly, since there is a city committee, price is the concern unless a specific spec is needed.
#12 by Jim B on June 23, 2019 - 4:39 PM
Gentlemen…
I find your debate very interesting as far as the Pierce Ascendant Aerial.
I am not familiar with that particular product, but did work for a Pierce dealer for about five years.
I still believe that they are able to specify and deliver the best product to fire depts.
Most of my sales were to Volunteer Fire Districts who had past purchasing habits with another company.
I sold several trucks based upon merit, and not upon price.
To me, the bottom line is that it is a very competitive business, which it should be.
If you can, work with your dept to buy apparatus that suits your needs.
When I sold for Pierce, I learned to listen to the guys on line. They know what they need, as all of you do.
Thanks for your time
#13 by harry on June 23, 2019 - 4:20 PM
a lot of depts. love the ascendant but it is not right for all I went in april to clayton co ga they had had theres for a year or so and it has been to many many fires and calls and they love it florida also has many but all in all time will tell how they hold up and also florida depts. get rid of rigs very quick because they lease them town of palm beach fl just got a 19 110 tower ascentdent and it replaced a 100 foot tower pierce that was a 2011
#14 by Bill Post on June 23, 2019 - 3:41 PM
Thank’s for your clarification Matt McC. It is interesting that you mentioned that the dealer that is selling the Spartan Ervs to Philadelphia has sold other brands to Philadelphia over the years because I know that Philadephia has used a wide variety of brands and models of fire apparatus over the years.
I’m also glad you brought up the fact of Philadelphia ordering the Aerialscopes as it had been taking Philadelphia a long time to resolve what they were going to replace their 2 remounted 85 foot Snorkel/Ladder companies with. Since they are order 4 Aerialscopes it seems that they also will be replacing their 2 KME mid mount Tower Ladders with them as well then? Unless they are deciding to make two more of their Ladder companies into Tower Ladders?
I know that in last the several years Phildelphia had 4 Aerial Platform Ladder companies in service Ladders 2 and 28 have been using 85 foot Snorkels while Ladders 6 and 22 were using the KME mid mounted Tower Ladders.
At one time Phildelphia had as many as 6 or 7 Aerial Platform in service. When Philadelphia was running with 6 or 7 Aerial Platforms which was as recent at the 1980’s and at least part of the 1990’s ,four of their Ladder companies were using Snorkels and 2 or 3 of their Ladder companies were using Aerialscopes on Mack CF chassis which is obviously before Mack gave up on custom built fire apparatus chassis.
So Philadephia does have experience using Aerialscopes in the past. When they were last in service that were assigned to Ladders 4,6 and 18.
Would you know if the new Aerialscopes will be 75 foot or 95 foot models?
#15 by Mike on June 23, 2019 - 9:58 AM
The ascendant is garbage. Give them a few more years and they’ll be falling apart. This is pierce’s unicorn for ladders. BTW their tower ladder on the ascendant. Package is a joke too. It basically looks like the basket was an add on to a straight ladder with the nozzle being under the basket. So you won’t be able to use the nozzle over the basket or put the basket down and scrub a building like a normal tower ladder can do, but hey it’s a pierce. I’m surprised more people aren’t looking at smeal for ladders or even spartan since they own LTI now
#16 by Matt McCrory on June 23, 2019 - 9:53 AM
PFD transition to Pierce TDAs is not going smoothly. Major issue with tiller end of trailer wandering several feet to either side. Order for a Pierce Ascendant Ladder Tower was cancelled. Order placed with Seagrave for 4 Aerialscopes. PFD has had a long, successful relationship with the Spartan ERV dealer since the 1960s through several different apparatus brands.
#17 by Bill Post on June 23, 2019 - 12:35 AM
Martin thanks for bringing up the important point of Pierce being the only company who was willing to meet Philadephia’s specifications. And meeting specs is also part of customer service.
Local Guy it is also true that Philly received a new Spartan heavy rescue plus a number of engines and two new pumper squads. Several cities that were using American LaFrance/LTI ladders have been going to Pierce including LA City and Phoenix whose aerial fleet consists of 13 tower ladders and a 114-foot Bronto Sky-Lift. Phoenix is replacing the American LaFrance mid-mount tower ladders with Pierce.
#18 by harry on June 23, 2019 - 12:22 AM
if they go wih the ascentdent which would make the most sense rather than driving a tandem axle on ems runs they should be able to get that for under 1 million but if they want something that has been out a while like a 100 foot tower then 1.3 million seems about right but leasing is always a very good option
#19 by FFPM571 on June 22, 2019 - 9:13 PM
Apparently people here have no clue what an actual spec’ed Truck costs… A neighboring town bought a pre built manufacturers spec truck in 2011 for $900K with the cost of inflation in 8 years and the fact is that they spec’ed it to their standards $1.35M is not out of line..
#20 by Localguy on June 22, 2019 - 8:04 PM
But Philly went with Spartan for pumpers and the new rescue 1.
#21 by Localguy on June 22, 2019 - 8:02 PM
Tim: what is the lawsuit against eone?
#22 by Martin on June 22, 2019 - 10:16 AM
Bill,
Philadelphia went with pierce for the tillers because they were the only ones who were able to spec out what the city wanted. This is why Pierce is great!
#23 by Mike C on June 22, 2019 - 8:31 AM
What is the truck made of? Gold? Harry, is this really a 110′ Ascendent? That’s even more outrageous of a price considering the Ascendent is a medium duty ladder!
#24 by harry on June 22, 2019 - 12:07 AM
if truck 9 is the busiest why do they have one of the oldest vehicles in the fleet that really does not make any sense
also I bet they will get the 110 foot pierce ascentdent tower
#25 by Daniel Hynd on June 21, 2019 - 11:44 PM
Truck 9 is the busiest suppression company in the department and ran 2,048 calls last year. It is also one of the oldest frontline apparatus being a 2006.
#26 by Michael m on June 21, 2019 - 10:47 PM
Interesting how Truck 1 has a mind of it’s own. Maybe they will give Truck 9’s rig to truck 1 temporarily, that sounds like a viable option. I wonder how many runs Truck 9 had las year?
#27 by Tim on June 21, 2019 - 10:45 PM
I love this site as everyone can express their opinions. I do agree with the old man…all the apparatus builders have issues. What I don’t understand is why guys think E-one is the savior over any other manufacturer. Orland just bought their first E-one. It was ordered in the fall of 2017 and they just got it this year. It was rushed off the E-One property because of a lawsuit. Not sure if the rig was completed before it left the plant. Also, E-one is NOT always the low bidder either. What guys also need to understand is the line personnel may want one builder and the chiefs/administration might want someone else. And price/service/warranty are not always the deciding factors.
#28 by Rich on June 21, 2019 - 7:27 PM
From what I was told by Naperville guys. Truck 1 has a mind of it’s own and service sucks. Truck 1 ladder goes up in morning checks. On the same day as checks, on a fire with ladder need the ladder won’t work????
#29 by Michael m on June 21, 2019 - 5:50 PM
i Wonder what chassis it will be on?
#30 by Anthony R on June 21, 2019 - 4:25 PM
@Rich S every manufacturer builds lemons, depends on your dealer and service though. @Oldtimer is spot on. Heard Global is a bad dealer though. If you could pick your dealer things would be easier. I thin E-one is gonna get the most orders in over pierce and seagrave though.
#31 by Sebastian on June 21, 2019 - 3:27 PM
Perhaps the current truck 9 will go over to truck 1?
#32 by Old timer on June 21, 2019 - 2:56 PM
Sebastian
An insane amount of money is my first pick up truck cost less than 4,000 my last truck cost 70,000
Rich S
With EVERY Manufacturer there are good things and problems kind of goes what the FD wants likes and fits their purpose
Another way of looking at it Who makes the best pick up Chevy Dodge Ford or the pos Toyota
#33 by Michael m on June 21, 2019 - 2:19 PM
That is a lot of money! But it is Naperville, they do have the bankroll to pay for it.
I thought they were going to replace Truck 1 instead of Truck 9 because of all the issues Truck 1 was having?
#34 by Bill Post on June 21, 2019 - 1:34 PM
When it comes to engines, Naperville isn’t married to Pierce as seen on this site they are preparing for an E/One. While they have had E/One trucks in the past, they apparently are repeating with Pierce for Tower Ladder 9. Perhaps they like what they got from Pierce the last time around. As to price, I don’t know how many companies bid on the tower ladder but I assume E/One would have submitted a lower bid, but that too can be a faulty assumption on my part.
Speaking of changing fire apparatus suppliers, the fleet in Dallas, TX was about 99% Spartan/Erv and they have started to replace their fleet with Pierce. Philadelphia who had been running KME and American LaFrance has become a major Spartan/Erv customer. Now they are replacing their tillered ladders with Pierce. So even though Pierce might have some issues with certain fire departments they still have a pretty good name. Sometimes it depends whose product the Pierce rigs are replacing.
#35 by Sebastian on June 21, 2019 - 12:52 PM
That is insane amount of money!!!!!
#36 by Rich S. on June 21, 2019 - 11:29 AM
I just do not understand why departments keep buying Pierce.?