From Macqueeneq.com:
Elgin FD Quint 1
Pierce composite
Elgin FD photo
- Job Number: 35087
- Chassis: Enforcer™
- Body: Ascendant® 107’ Heavy-Duty Aerial Ladder
- Engine: Cummins L9
- Horsepower: 450 hp
- Front Suspension: Leaf
- Rear Suspension: Spring
- Electrical System: Command Zone™
- Pump: Pierce PUC™ Midship
- Pump GPM: 1,500-GPM
- Tank: Water
- Tank Size: 500 gallons
thanks Zach
#1 by Mike C on March 11, 2021 - 6:57 AM
I drove through Elgin the other day and saw this truck. It already had a headlight out. Perhaps a bad LED headlamp or an electrical issue. This truck needs a Mars 888 and a green light.
#2 by Mike C on January 29, 2021 - 5:38 PM
Gary – I can’t find any information about the Enforcer being available with the 13.38 frame rails and speaking with my friend who is more knowledgeable than I with the Pierce product line, he’s stating the 10.25″ is the only available frame rails on the Enforcer. I’m only going based on my friends information but it does seem odd to also offer a 13.38″ frame rail and a 10.25″ rail. From my understanding the Enforcer is considered a medium duty chassis. In addition, engineering a cab to support both size rails doesn’t seem practical. I would be interested in seeing more information if you have it.
CIAO!
#3 by Bulldog on January 25, 2021 - 8:57 AM
Not to be a critic but the Elgin tower Sebastian is talking about is a little older than 2013. My department looked at this truck sometime in 2011 before Elgin bought it. I only know it was 2011 since I referenced a pic in my phone. From what I remember, at that time it had around 20,000 miles on it. If memory serves me right, it was built in 2010. Nice truck but wasn’t the right fit for us.
I too would like to hear details on Sebastian’s opinion on Sutphen as my department will be looking for a new engine in 2022.
#4 by Sebastian on January 23, 2021 - 5:46 PM
John, are correct! Especially when the 2013 truck 2 will be replaced a lot sooner than later… that’s a pretty expensive ambulance chaser!! IMO!
#5 by Gary on January 23, 2021 - 3:51 PM
A couple of bits of information to add. The Enforcer is available with the big 13.38″ frame rails, we have two on order.
All single axle quints from anybody are pushing the limits on being overloaded, it is the result of trying to do too much with one truck. I wouldn’t personally get one for that reason, but to each his own.
Quality control has suffered at Pierce, but appears to be turning back around, I’ll let you know in 12 months how much. You can help fix it with a solid pre build conference and a thorough final inspection of a good specification.
The Aerial issue was bad steel batch but it makes me wonder how they passed the third-party UL inspection in the plant.
You can get the Ascendant with a 750# tip so it is Heavy duty just using a higher psi steel.
We have TAK4 on a used rearmount platform we purchased 6 years ago and the rear of our 2016 tiller. It provides an EXCELLENT ride. However, it has to be maintained properly and it is expensive. We chose not to get it on our engines we have on order.
Every manufacturers quality isn’t what it was 20 years ago, even Seagrave. Most of it isn’t “their” built product, it is the components used but everyone is responsible for their truck and trying to cut costs.
#6 by John tobin on January 23, 2021 - 1:18 PM
Thanks Tim…..the EFD rig has many a tenticle attached to justify the need…..a past administration got the ball rolling by giving up an Ambulace, while propelling a pipe dream of ALS engines……really and now the struggle to get it back will go on for a very long time and who knows if and when.
I believe just like in St Louis, the quint concept EFD is hedging towards will rear it’s ugly head in the not too distant future.
#7 by Tim on January 22, 2021 - 2:42 PM
I just want to comment on John Tobin’s post.
John you really hit it on the head. I don’t know anything about Elgin as I’m a south sider, but every dept. is doing this same $H&T. Buying these way too heavy single-axle quints and running the piss out of them. And you’re right they’re running all the ems assist runs, rubbish, elevator rescues, etc. One other thing these departments are doing is loading all the extrication equipment on them too. Oh wait also the technical rescue and dive stuff too.
One of the problems I’ve seen is people (Chiefs, trustees, apparatus committee members, etc) sitting around the big table and saying “well the trucks are too long with a tandem so we need a single-axle rig, and they’re cheaper. YEA THAT SOUNDS GREAT!! LESS TIRES LESS BRAKES LESS MAINTENANCE. Herein lies the problem, less tires, less brakes, less load carrying capacity, less braking capacity.
56,300 GVWR? Holy Spongebobsquarepants Batman!! A 6×4 truck tractor normally has a rating of 50,000 or 52,000lbs…….12,000lbs front axle and 34,000 or 40,000lb tandem rear axle rating just to give you guys some comparisons.
Don’t get me wrong either boys, this isn’t an Elgin bash or fire dept. bash but more of an (any) apparatus builder (and salesman) bash for pushing this stuff.
Someone said it earlier but yes the PUC pumps are Darley’s. A quality pump to say the least.
#8 by JOHN TOBIN on January 22, 2021 - 1:34 PM
Zach, you’re just not a Packer fan, lol … and really I’m sure they coupled this photo op with the lengthy road test, eh?
I know one fire chief that would have found a way to reject the rig after it was staged at such a place …. tacky indeed. So where is the Chicago Bear helmet … a photoshop I see in the near future.
#9 by JOHN TOBIN on January 22, 2021 - 1:03 PM
Interesting times at the EFD … the department has been for years under funded and under staffed. It has been the poster child definition of “do more with less”, long before it came into vogue. This in part, really made the EFD tough as nails.
The hope within the ranks of having a true, fully staffed truck company have passed away, as this is another new age in political history. The EFD gave up the staffed truck companies long ago, to get the EMS up and running. In saying that, this new rig is their answer to the cards they have been dealt. Sad, but it is what it is.
This couples into the variety of rigs that the EFD now has. The “same spec” concept died in 2008 when the KMEs were purchased. SFA was beaten very badly at the bid table and the administration made the decision to make a change. While the KMEs were similar, it started the trend and the last couple of pumpers, even though the look nice and ride nice … have far less speced into them. Every manufacturer has problems, but the Cat issues with the KMEs became legendary.
The mindset that the rigs would be kept in front line service for many years, properly serviced and a mindset that the day to day care mattered, changed also … so the thought process of buying a true tightly speced performance type apparatus, died as well …
Stainless steel cabs and bodies, big block motors coupled to the big Allison trans … twoastage pumps, lacking the pretty blinking lights, menu pages and all the other electronics generated gadgets, died also. The fed rust with steel and white rust with aluminum, no longer applied … it will be gone that much sooner, so don’t worry about it. Maybe there is a value to this … time will tell I guess.
The real problem is, the quint concept is very expensive and even St Louis finally came to the realization after several rounds of quint replacements. This will be dealt with from the next administration … kick it down the road.
This rig will be beat down the road, chasing ambulances and dumpster fires until the wheels fall off … no one can tell any mechanic that it is a good thing to carry all that weight on two axles. Let’s not even get into the electronic nightmares that will rear their ugly head also. I’m hoping the EFD, before they purchased this rig, set it up in some of the more challenging areas in town before they decided to go ahead with this and not just at the flat as a pancake drill tower parking lot.
This is a trendy rig and they are selling like hot cakes. While the PTO pump concept may save weight, the high output PTO pump concept, is another marginal push to the limit think tank hatch … not to mention the double 90-degree main suctions … and no the pump is not built in house, it is purchased. Bets are the rig will have issues putting out the rated capacity, before it’s half life.
The ladder, I am told, rivals the old Peter Pirsch nickname “the diving board” … and some complained about the 250lb tip load SFA ladder, lol.
The rusty frame and torque box issues abound out there, with some rigs at their supposed half life being junked or sold for pennies on the dollar … while I have no sympathy for the rusty company in question (and there are other mfgs too), the issue didn’t happen overnight. Many departments just don’t get under their rigs anymore. Questions would arise, like why are we spending 2K on a finish, or an epoxy type paint job on the frame, lol. Epoxy type coating between the frame liner … that’s far too expensive and not necessary according to the salesman who’s company didn’t want to do it … now galvanized frames are sizzling hot. One fire chief was amazed that at one time all the EFD rigs were pressure washed underneath at least twice a year, the most important one being in the spring. Now there is no time and no $$$ to do such nonsense. Drive it and put fuel in it …
My last thought is the rig should have a “7” on it … maybe then the ladder could at least reach the majority of the roof tops in it’s district. A thought was at the time a 100+’, properly axled quint with maybe a 600-gallon water tank out there would be a wiser choice … another thought long disregarded.
Hey at least they put a straight front axle under it, lol my thought for the day.
#10 by Danny on January 22, 2021 - 11:11 AM
Pierce does a lot of promotional pre-delivery photos in front of that Pavilion at Lambeau Field
#11 by Zach Cox on January 22, 2021 - 10:02 AM
Is Lambeau Field on the route for the Pierce testing or does Pierce stop at Lambeau to photograph the rigs NFL rivalry purposes? Lambeau is about a half hour north of Pierce in the opposite direction as Elgin.
#12 by Matthew G on January 21, 2021 - 3:08 PM
Bulldog, Darley produces the pumps.
#13 by Bulldog on January 21, 2021 - 2:51 PM
To answer Mike’s question about the axles
* Front Axle – 22,800 lb Dana
* Rear Axle – 33,500 Meritor
Who makes the PUC pump? Pierce advertises it as a Pierce pump but I would assume it’s made by Darley, Waterous, or Hale to the Pierce spec and only for Pierce.
#14 by Bulldog on January 21, 2021 - 1:55 PM
I would consider Elgin an elite department. Really solid men & women on this department that have great experience under their belt!
Elgin has had a few different chiefs over the past few years. It gets difficult in situations like apparatus because each chief does things a little different. Unless the administration sticks around for several years, there’s a good chance the next incoming chief will make changes to the fleet.
In my opinion, fleet consistency has a lot of value so I agree with Mike when he brings up the importance of this. My department has 3 different brands but they are all very similar. If you look at FDNY they spec their rigs so tight that if you drive a KME engine, you can drive the Seagrave engine without any major changes. Compartmentation is all identical, and operation procedures are the same.
I can’t tell you what brand is good and what brand is bad but I can tell you different specifications and different builders brings inefficiency to the department as a whole.
#15 by Mike C on January 21, 2021 - 12:17 PM
Sebastian – Clearly your research is insufficient, as I’ve proven you wrong many times. You are often not stating an opinion, you’re stating inaccurate information. Interestingly, Crabby, Localguy, John, and Tim have all backed my comments with their professional experience as well in this post. If you read my initial post closely, I asked several questions looking for further information, not bashing or starting drama. If knowing an Elgin LT means you have all the correct information, I guess I have way more correct information as I know a few Elgin firefighters myself. With that being the case, how have you come to the conclusion that Sutphen makes the best? Bring some substance to the table, rather than your unnecessary dialogue. Is it their quality control, their engineering, or what is it? What experience do you have to support your argument?
Crabby – You are correct. I would have considered Pierce a pretty topnotch builder at one point. I’d say about the mid 90’s is when the quality really dropped. About 20-25 years ago when Pierce had a surge in sales, they grew very rapidly and hired a lot of unqualified workers. I remember windshields were falling out because they were installed incorrectly. It just seemed like the product line and innovations expanded but the quality never improved.
John – The ride on a straight axle may be a little bumpier than the TAK-4 but less body roll on the straight axle.
Localguy – I honestly don’t know if there’s a liner in the frame rail on the Enforcer. I would hope there is! I would think Pierce would advertise it more specifically if they did line the rail.
Tim – I’m with you on the big heavy quints on a single axle. I always felt like they serve many purposes but none of the purposes excel. That goes for all brands, not just Pierce.
Rusty and Localguy – Indianapolis sent their Ascendant back to Pierce before it was even in service. It was bran new and the aerial had major issues. It just makes me wonder how does such a substantial issue make it past quality control prior to leaving the factory.
I know Pierce has recently announced their corrosion protection on their frame rails. I would consider this a major advancement to Pierce. If Pierce didn’t have such terrible corrosion issues for all these years, they probably wouldn’t be half bad rigs. I’ve seen so many detrimental corrosion issues on Pierce over the years, often times so bad the the rig was decommissioned indefinitely.
#16 by Localguy on January 20, 2021 - 3:48 PM
Bloomington fire’s new truck didn’t pass final inspection bc of the ladder. I also believe Indianapolis had some of their new ladders go back.
#17 by Rusty on January 19, 2021 - 7:09 PM
What’s really interesting is the total skip over Mike’s comment about the Ascendant Recall. I believe it was for the main rails on the ladder assembly just peeling apart. I wonder if there an any in the area that that had happened to. Anybody know?
#18 by Tim on January 19, 2021 - 1:32 PM
Whew…those were some long posts. We all can agree to disagree.
My 2 cents..nobody asked but here they are.
It’s a nice looking rig. Not a fan of big heavy quints on a single rear axle, even though they’re becoming popular. Brake and tire manufactures like them 🙂
EQ2B sucks…….the driver usually burns out (the siren driver, not the guy driving the rig). And it just makes a siren sound, whereas the mechanical Q-siren actually pushes traffic.
Mike C. You’re right the Tak 4 is extremely problematic. And it is what it is, more moving parts = more problems.
Linex on the front bumper keeps it from getting scratched up when you drag hose off of it.
We all like who we like as far as apparatus. I’m not sure there is any 1 great builder any more. Back in the day we all had American LaFrances and Mack CFs. Now someone might say “what the hell are those?” I get everyone is passionate about this stuff but, I say take a breath.
Thank you gentlemen.
#19 by Localguy on January 19, 2021 - 1:04 PM
I guarantee you it’s not a single frame rail. It’s a double if not a triple. EVERY manufacturer offers frame rail liners.
#20 by Sebastian on January 19, 2021 - 12:56 PM
Mike,
When your rant ends in A sarcastic CIAO.. what do you expect? Someone not to respond in a sarcastic matter? Be real! You started the drama! At this point we all know you hate pierce! But you don’t have to make it known at every single pierce post in here! As far as me being an arm chair qb.. you’re totally wrong! I am an enthusiast yes 100% but I also do my research before I open my mouth! I live in Elgin and I happen to be friends with a lieutenant at station 1! So we do have frequent discussions! Do I know everything… no where close!! You are always the first to start bashing! Again I am simply stating an opinion that is mine and mine only!
Thank you
#21 by crabbymilton on January 19, 2021 - 11:50 AM
Great points John. It does defy logic that OSHKOSH would be so lacking in quality. How can they sell a product when it’s no good? No matter, there are other vendors/builders so unless depts. have long term deals with one or another, don’t disregard any builder otherwise your just limiting yourself and could miss out on a better deal. Loyalty doesn’t do much good if you are getting jerked around.
Enjoy your retirement John!!! You earned it.
#22 by The DH on January 19, 2021 - 11:13 AM
Mike C, you raise some good points and questions. It is interesting that they have such variety in their fleet, maybe eventually they will settle on one? I’d guess they bid specs and have to go with whoever bids the lowest.
Pierce definitely has dipped in quality since the early 2000s, I feel its a combination of what you said, Mike, and spreading themselves thin with chassis and options. Look at Seagrave, only a couple options.
The Ascendant here and in Rockford will be a pretty good test on their worth as both are busy departments.
Sebastian….you started in with the attempted insults right away. Why would you call someone a republican on a fire buff blog? Take your own advice and stick to the topic. No need for childish name calling or insults…you don’t like what he has to say, move on.
#23 by John Antkowski on January 19, 2021 - 10:55 AM
Pierce went to hell when Oshkosh Trucks came into the picture. I can’t recall who owns who but quality did take the back seat in their business. And the Tak-4 is also junk is not reliable and it’s also expensive to repair or replace. Milwaukee’s last 2 engines were Enforcers without the Tak-4 system. The shop foreman said that the ride will be bumpier but stronger. Rumors before I retired that the 2 new Tower’s coming from Pierce will be Mid Mounts. I’m waiting to see how that’s going to work. I agree that the frame guarantees are too late. Their reputation is soured. If you notice big cities are picking other vendors and Chicago went back to E-Ones. And for the FDNY they replace everything every 10 years. Apparently it’s in the contract somewhere. Either purchasing or the union.
#24 by crabbymilton on January 19, 2021 - 7:50 AM
I can’t speak fir either of you guys but it does appear that PIERCE has moved down slightly in the market to compete with KME and SPARTAN given they have so many chassis selections. Please, I’m not trying to disparage any builder but it’s human nature to praise something when they do well and blast them when they are in a lousy period. PIERCE seems to be in lousy recovery now. PIERCE at one time was in the same league as SEAGRAVE and SUTPHEN but they have branched out quite a bit. Unfortunately they P.O.’d many longtime customers. I wonder why they just don’t consolidate the IMPEL and VELOCITY?
#25 by Mike C on January 19, 2021 - 5:43 AM
Do you work for Superior?
I’ve been very detailed about why I don’t like Pierce over and over. I don’t have time to go into detail now but proprietary parts, countless recalls, lack of quality and false marketing is why I don’t like Pierce.
Your comment about the Seagrave’s and KME’s being the same spec was vague. I didn’t know how to interpret it. Regardless, once this aerial is in service the frontline fleet will be all different with the exception of the E-One’s. 3 completely different Pierces, 1 Seagrave, 1 KME, and the 2 E-One’s.
Have you ever noted how many recalls the TAK-4 has had? Even though it’s low end, Pierce hasn’t discontinued it because this is what they’re known for! It would look even worse for them to get rid of it. Did you hear anything about the Ascendant recall a couple years ago? It was kept very quiet but it was a major quality issue.
What are you basing your opinion off of that Sutphen makes the best rig? With your personal experience please tell me. I don’t agree but would go as far to say they make a quality rig. One of my counterparts thinks Sutphen is the worst. That, I don’t agree with.
Why have you turned my original post into a bunch of drama? I had several questions in my original post and felt it was full of opportunities for constructive dialogue. You’ve derailed the conversation.
Sebastian = armchair quarterback
#26 by Sebastian on January 18, 2021 - 10:19 PM
Mike,
First of all, You have no idea of what I do for a living or how much i actually know and understand about the Ems industry! Yes I am very much an enthusiast and I enjoy this website!! It’s people like you that take the fun out of enjoying it!
Second- every time someone asks you why are you so peculiar/ hard on pierce… YOU NEVER answer the question!
Third- if you take the time to actually read what I wrote initially, you would of read that I said all the Seagraves are spec’d the same, the Kme’s are spec’d the same and the E-ones are spec’d the same!!! The only rigs that they have currently that are not spec’d the same are their pierce rigs!!
Fourth- i respect the fact that you are a Ev tech and that you have been doing this for a long time!! But please all i ask is to extend the same curtesy to others and quit bashing people!! After all this website is mostly for enthusiasts and buffs anyway!! It’s always interesting what people have to say and it’s pretty neat when people share their knowledge!
Fifth- if the Tak-4 is such garbage they pierce would probably get away from it.. obviously it’s not as bad as you make it sound!! After all they did discontinue the dash cf chassis!
Again just my two cents!
Sebastian
#27 by Mike C on January 18, 2021 - 9:43 PM
Sebastian – How about we have some constructive dialogue rather than you spewing bad information. It’s cool being an enthusiast but we all know by now that, that’s exactly what you are and nothing more. Come to the table with solid information, kid.
The Elgin Seagraves are spec’d the same as the KME’s? WRONG!
Seagrave = stainless steel split tilt cab full length doors (shorter length cab)
KME = aluminum full tilt cab with barrier doors. (longer length cab)
Seagrave = S60
KME = C13 w/DEF
Seagrave = standard compartment doors
KME = roll ups
Body configuration is slightly different.
Doesn’t sound like the same spec to me but there are some similarities.
#28 by Sebastian on January 18, 2021 - 9:29 PM
Also i forgot to mention that In my Opinion Sutphen makes the best rigs out there BAR NONE!
Ps: you are starting to make me wonder if you are related to Harry!
CIAO.. CIAO…
#29 by Sebastian on January 18, 2021 - 9:25 PM
Personally Mikey,
I would love to know why you are so obsessed with picking on Pierce! As far as Elgin goes… the Seagraves they have are all specked the same.. the kme rigs are specked the same…
Also… you must be a republican! ??!!
CIAO!!
#30 by Mike C on January 18, 2021 - 8:29 PM
I recently took it upon myself to further inform myself on the Pierce product lineup. Pierce offers a huge variety of different chassis and aerials. Unlike any competitor. As I dug through the website, I noticed that the Saber and the Enforcer have the narrow frame rails where the Quantum, Arrow XT, Impel, and Velocity have the larger frame rails. Over all the years of turning wrenches, I can probably count on both hands how many times I’ve actually seen frame rail failure. With the Enforcer having this rather large aerial on it, I am eager to see how the 10.25″ rails last. My initial thought is, this is not a truck designed for longevity, or high call volume. Don’t get me wrong, this truck looks good! I just don’t foresee it withstanding the stress of the aerial on it without some sort of issues. Perhaps, I’ll be wrong but 20 years from now, I’d think this trucks lifespan has been exhausted.
In addition, this truck has 500 gallons of water. That’s over 4,000 lbs in a small area. What are the front and rear axles rated at?
What benefit is there to the Linex cab steps and front bumper? I really like the appearance. I don’t typically see to much corrosion on the ATP. I suppose this would be nice to absorb a little heat if you chose to sit or touch the front bumper in direct sun light. I personally think the rear steps leading to the aerial and the pump panel should have also been covered in Linex to match.
The PUC is a pretty nice concept. I don’t like the low ground clearance on a long wheelbase rig like such but I do like the enclosed panel. The PUC really allows for nice compartment configuration too.
Glad to see the TAK4 wasn’t specified in this rig. Absolute garbage!
I don’t see a Q2B on this truck. I know some departments are going with the EQ2B which I haven’t seen it to be anymore reliable. I’ve replaced the amps for the EQ2B a few times.
In my personal opinion, I like the roll up door tracks to be painted but I know some will say unpainted is better since these areas are vulnerable to scratches while putting equipment inside.
I noticed Pierce now has a corrosion protection on their frame rails. They’re probably a little late in the game…the guys and I in the shop joke periodically when we see a Pierce that’s biodegradable.
I find it fascinating that Pierce markets the Ascendant as a heavy duty aerial when most of the components to it, are very lightweight.
I find it rather interesting that Elgin’s current frontline fleet is all very different. The only consistency is the 2 E-One engines. Other than that, each rig is a completely different spec. How do you maintain efficiency on a fire ground standpoint or even day to day operations of the vehicle when each rig is different. How do you keep track of where each tool is located? How do you keep track of all the different operation procedures? How do you maintain each rig, all with different parts? Seems quite strange to me.
I wonder if Elgin allows the company where the rig is stationed to customize or personalize their apparatus. The placard on the aerial is very generic.
Looking forward to hearing back in response to some of my questions.
CIAO!