Excerpts from the KaneCountyChronicle.com:
If a proposed alcohol and drug treatment center is permitted at a former boys’ school, the ambulance calls to a local fire district would increase by 120 to 150 a year, according to recent testimony.
Maxxam Partners LLC is seeking a special-use permit from the Kane County Zoning Board of Appeals to convert the former Glenwood School for Boys, at 41W400 Silver Glen Road, into a 120-bed private pay, luxury treatment center.
At the continued hearing, Robert Handley, board president of the Fox River and Countryside Fire Protection District, said he based his estimate by comparing similar facilities in other areas.
“We are out-of-quarters for at least three hours from the time of dispatch to time of arrival” at the hospital, Handley said. “We can’t just drop them [patients] off and say, ‘Goodbye.’ There is a transfer of patient care.”
In 2015, the fire district had 896 calls for emergency medical service and 489 calls for fire service.
Handley said one ambulance down for three hours would strain the district’s ability to serve other residents and the district would have to rely on other departments, which would charge out-of-district fees. The additional calls also cause added wear and tear on the ambulances.
“And presumably the response time would be increased.” Handley said. “They would have to wait for an ambulance. It has a ripple effect.”
thanks Dan
#1 by Opr57 on February 4, 2016 - 9:13 PM
Yes there would be legitamite EMS calls , but what about the the ones where a patient/resident suddenly does not like to food,the staff and acts out usually in the form of a suicidal statement , or plain just gets violent. First you’ll tie up the police on duty then the ambulance and the chase squad/engine. if any question check the run stats from Hoffman Estates Moonlake blvd. station and their neighbors.And how much revenue the get from those runs.
#2 by Crabby Milton on February 4, 2016 - 11:31 AM
Thank You guys. It does explain much!
Yes I know it’s not like Johnny and Roy talking to Dr. Brackett and Johnny going after the pretty nurse but good point. But it does sound like there is too much paper work that holds up the works. Otherwise it does validate that these modern advances and techniques do indeed save lives and that’s what counts.
#3 by Marty Coyne on February 4, 2016 - 10:39 AM
No. Trying establishing an IV or getting a 12 lead with the rig in motion. Often both medics are working the patient.
#4 by Joe on February 4, 2016 - 9:59 AM
Good questions, Crabby. Thanks for approaching it this way too. It’s genuinely nice to see someone ask questions about something they don’t fully understand.
While things differ across the US, and even in northeastern Illinois where I work (and probably where most of us live), there are a few trends in EMS that have become more prominent over the last few years. The “load and go” ethic of the older days is going by the wayside now. Paramedics are now considered medical practitioners by the State of Illinois, they are no longer “technicians” (as in EMT-P.) This leads to them having the ability to treat patients differently and to practice more skills than they were before. This change wasn’t immediately apparent as changing from technician to practitioner didn’t change any system or regional policies. That’s a slow-moving process that’s still occurring.
As paramedics have access to many more skills than they did before, they will generally spend more time with the patient, and that often includes time in the back of the ambulance. Some systems encourage paramedics to treat in place, then move the patient to the ambulance, then transport right away. Others direct the paramedics to move the patient to the ambulance, treat, then transport. It really depends on the system. There’s also the individual factor as well. Older paramedics are more prone to minimize treatment on the scene and transport as quickly as possible while younger paramedics tend to extend scene time to provide treatment before transporting if necessary.
The bottom line is that there’s no one right answer for every patient. A paramedic is tasked with providing the best, most appropriate, and safest treatment for their patient. We don’t always know what that will be when arriving on scene. Furthermore, some treatments and tests simply cannot be provided in a moving ambulance. Performing a 12-lead ECG (advanced heart monitoring) is not possible in a moving ambulance due to the ambulance bouncing around. It introduces too much artifact which causes the ECG reading to be unreliable. IVs are tough, but possible, in a moving ambulance. Most younger medics will attempt to avoid starting IVs while moving though due to safety concerns.
Extended scene times can happen for many reasons. Many EMS systems are moving to stop their paramedics from transporting cardiac arrest patients as studies consistently show that these patients see better results if they are treated where they’re found. Save rates in many systems have increased significantly from less than 10% to above 40% in some cases. A remarkable turnaround based on research, but it requires long scene times.
Once the patient is dropped at a hospital, there is more work to be done. Paramedics must wait for a nurse or doctor to see the patient before they can leave them, otherwise they are abandoning their patient. The paramedic must also give report to that doctor or nurse so that they are fully aware of the patient’s condition and the paramedic’s findings. Sometimes this takes a long time, especially at a busy hospital. Next, one paramedic will clean and restock the ambulance to ensure that it is ready to go for the next patient. The other will document the call, usually on a computer reporting system, that includes a narrative, vital signs, assessment, and treatment provided…among other things. This will absolutely take time. The more complicated the call, the more time the documentation takes. It’s an extremely important step and can cause significant legal issues if not done properly.
It’s not like on TV where the paramedics hang out and hit on the hot nurses. Generally crews make an effort to get back in service as quickly as possible. Extended hospital times can lead to questions from your company officer or from your battalion chief. It’s not something that most medics want to have to answer for.
All that said, I think the idea of a routine 3 hour EMS run is absolutely insane. Some older medics will definitely take longer with the documentation portion of the run because of difficulty with the computer systems, but even the worst of my partners that I’ve worked with won’t take more than 45 minutes at the hospital. Based on my observations, I generally take 40-45 minutes total for a BLS run, and close to an hour for an ALS run. This is from dispatch to back to quarters. If we take a run from the hospital, which we frequently do, that time falls even more. Since we’re in service prior to getting back to quarters, I’d estimate that for the most part, my ambulance is back in service within 35 minutes of dispatch most of the time. I know that this isn’t going to be the case everywhere, but the claim by the fire district that an EMS run is going to tie up an ambulance for 3 hours is ridiculous. If that’s the norm, some serious conversations need to take place between the paramedics and their company officers, and some policy changes need to be implemented. That’s too long, it’s excessive, and it would represent another example in what seems to be a long history of waste within this fire district.
#5 by mike on February 4, 2016 - 9:54 AM
This is a ridiculous article. 3 hours for a run is absolutely crazy, unless it’s a long distance transport. Yes we do a lot in a moving ambulance and at times it’s not easy but it gets done. If they can’t cover their runs then disband and let another department that can cover their runs do this. All this article shows is just how inept and disfunctional this organization really is. If I lived in that area I would be very nervous about calling 911.
#6 by Bmurphy on February 4, 2016 - 9:48 AM
Your questions are valid and have merit- many folks get curious about this. The goal of prehospital activity is to stabilize the patient prior to transport. A moving vehicle at any speed is a difficult environment to do such tasks as start an IV, asses for signs and symptoms of injury or illness, perform an accurate ECG, manage a compromised airway, or simply calm down an agitated or otherwise frightened patient. And doing CPR and all the other tasks involved in a cardiac arrest are extremely challenging in a moving vehicle, not to mention a hazard to the care givers unbelted inthe back. Patients who are the most stabilized when they arrive in the ER usually have the best chances at a good outcome. Think of the ambulance (a stationary one that is) as a mini ER- it’s much preferred as a place for initial patient stabilization than in an uncontrolled or unfamiliar environment. That being said, you would not want your ER to be moving, rocking, bumping and swaying and exposed to collisions from other vehicles. Depending on the circumstances, we are bound by our EMS system policies and procedures to get certain tasks done prior to transport, for both the well-being of the patient and the medics.
Hope that gives you some insight. Stop by a firehouse and ask for a tour of the ambulance- you’ll be pretty impressed with all that can be accomplished inside.
#7 by Crabby Milton on February 4, 2016 - 9:19 AM
Yes Marty I understand that and I never said they were sitting around talking. Can’t they work while the ambulance is moving? Going slower to the hospital is faster than sitting there.
#8 by Marty Coyne on February 4, 2016 - 9:15 AM
Crabby, you do realize they’re actually working on the patient in the back of the rig before leaving, not sitting around chatting. On the other end, the run sheet had to be filled out on the computer, the rig restocked etc.
#9 by Crabby Milton on February 4, 2016 - 8:26 AM
I’m not bashing anyone since I never worked as a doctor, nurse or EMT. I just acting as an observer and have questions. I have noticed over the many years that often times they load a patient into the ambulance and then they sit for several minutes. Why not load them up and get going? Then when they get to the hospital, the paramedics are still working with the doctors and nurses for an extended time.(TV documentaries on EMT’s) I can understand a few minutes to transition to the hospital personnel but for that long? They could be freed up sooner.
I would be interested in another perspective on this.
#10 by Brian on February 4, 2016 - 8:16 AM
Regardless of the factual times for an ems run. This facility should pay to staff an additional ambo for whatever district is covering the facility.
#11 by MABAS 21 on February 4, 2016 - 6:45 AM
Three hours for an ambulance run? Where are they transporting to, Milwaukee? Mr.Handley lose your ego and do the residents aka taxpayers a favor, go back to St. Charles for services and abolish the district!
#12 by cmk420 on February 3, 2016 - 11:55 PM
This issue should be the least of their problems right now. They should focus of finding a new chief and solve their staffing issue first.
#13 by Bill on February 3, 2016 - 10:11 PM
And another at Randall and Keslinger.
#14 by harry on February 3, 2016 - 9:52 PM
i dont understand that either there is a hospital in elgin right off randall and 90
#15 by Bill on February 3, 2016 - 8:47 PM
How is an ambulance tied up for 3 hrs on an EMS run? This is why they should have left the district with St. Charles Fire.