New truck for Frankfort FPD « chicagoareafire.com

New truck for Frankfort FPD

From Bill Schreiber:

The Frankfort Fire Protection District signed a contract for a Rosenbauer Commander EXT body 109Ft. Viper quint, 1500 pump, 500-gallon tank

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Tags: drawing of Rosenbauer Commander 109' Viper quint for the Frankfort FPD, drawing of Rosenbauer Commander Viper quint for the Frankfort FD, Frankfort Fire Protection District, New truck for Frankfort FPD

This entry was posted on December 17, 2020, 2:00 PM and is filed under Fire Department News, New Apparatus Order. You can follow any responses to this entry through RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

25 Comments

#1 by BAT 10 on December 22, 2020 - 5:16 AM

Bill, That is one of two MABAS 19 CART trucks. This one at my Station 74 & the 2nd that I think will be going to Lemont….
#2 by bill on December 21, 2020 - 9:06 AM

Frankfort has a freightliner box truck sitting inside station 4 anyone know what that is for?
#3 by Drew Smith on December 20, 2020 - 11:31 PM

I cannot find anything written by Chief Svetanics but this article was written by his deputy chief https://usfa.kohalibrary.com/app/work/44985
You can request it from your local library via Inter Library Loan.

Here is a 2012 article written by a member of the St.LFD
https://www.fireapparatusmagazine.com/2012/03/01/using-quint-apparatus-in-an-urban-setting/
#4 by Jim Wilk on December 20, 2020 - 5:12 PM

Drew,

Is there anywhere to read about St. Louis going to the quint concept with their Chief explaining it? It sounds like an interesting story. I think many times people on the outside can jump to conclusions without knowing the entire story. Thanks for the explanation.
#5 by Mike C on December 20, 2020 - 8:11 AM

Here’s my personal goal going into 2021 as 2020 was a tough year. My goal is to bring more constructive dialogue to benefit and advance the fire service.

Tons of critics on this site that do nothing to make the fire service better!

Annoying!

For those of you with experience with the Rosenbauer product, what are some things you feel they do well and some things they don’t do well?
#6 by MABAS 21 on December 19, 2020 - 8:05 PM

Hey Craig, do you need a hug? Yes there are fire buffs on here that don’t understand tactics, operations and apparatus specs; but remember that this is a public blog and if you’re really on the job, as you insinuate, maybe you should take the time to explain to them instead of insulting people.
#7 by Craig Mack on December 19, 2020 - 5:49 PM

Hey Rusty, how bout you wipe ur tears and look at the comments from people talking about firing the chief for apparatus decisions. Decisions that they don’t have a clue about how or why they were made.

Go tell them about Christmas spirit…
#8 by Drew Smith on December 18, 2020 - 8:51 PM

I will not go so far as to outright dismiss there is any value in a 75 foot aerial but any such selection should be the result of a competent analysis of the factors the fire department is probable to face. If all your structures are three stories or less, have excellent access, are separated from other structures, and so on a 75 feet may be useful. When St. Louis went to the “all-quint” concept in 1986 it was a result of analysis and factors that the then fire chief Neil Svetanics could not overcome. This background is important because it explains why he felt this was the best option then (some 34 years ago). I have heard this story from the chief and/or his staff more than once over the years. No one should apply the St.LFD’s experience to their FD without undertaking an analysis.

Back then, the St.LFD ran traditional engines and trucks. The FD assigned five members to each company on each shift. Vacations, sick calls, etc. were handled within the company and staffing was usually less than five and frequently at three. When staffing dropped to two they closed the firehouse and redistributed the personnel. Coupled with this, the city was pressuring the fire chief to close firehouses or do something. The fire chief didn’t want to close any firehouses but he often didn’t have enough members to staff everything even at three-member companies. Another factor was that back then (and I have no idea if this still applies) but the only way for the FD to fund new apparatus was by way of a voter-approved referendum. The chief came to the conclusion that they would ask the voters to approve a new fleet of 34 quints, one for every firehouse. If approved, he would commit to four-member companies. It was approved as we can conclude since they implemented the program.

The planning for the quints took into consideration a number of factors. One was that outside the downtown, buildings over three stories were uncommon and given the age of the city many structures were built close to the street; setbacks would not be an issue much of the time. The FD made a list of all possible tools, equipment, and hose and asked each company to rate the items on a scale of never used to must have. They then planned to carry all the must haves and should haves. Any rarely needed but should haves were then to be carried on the two heavy rescues that would run citywide. The FD constructed a plywood mockup of the cabinets they wanted and when they went out to bid that was the required layout a manufacturer must build.

No manufacturer had done this. The St.LFD was concerned about committing the whole fleet to one design and one aerial so they opted to build 15 quints with 55-foot telesqurts and 15 with 75-foot aerials. All 30 of these had the same cabinet layout. The remaining 4 quints were to be 100-foot (or so) with one being a platform. The platform would go downtown and the other 3 would be stationed north, west, and south of downtown.

For the first decade of this operation, a first-alarm was three quints. First quint to arrive would function as the engine. Second quint to arrive would function as the truck. Third quint would provide water supply to first quint then function as assigned. A full first alarm would get six quints with at least one being a 100-footer. I recall seeing video of the 55-footers being used in this manner: Squrt extended into windows on upper floors and nozzles rotated to apply water in large flows.

Now, I am sure not everything worked as intended. And, some people didn’t like it. But, after listening to the fire chief say he had limited choices, he chose a plan that replaced the entire fleet and kept all the firehouses open with four-members on each company.

I know from the trade publications that St.LFD has moved away from this total quint concept but I don’t know why. Certainly in 30-plus years, the circumstances have changed and perhaps for the better. But each administration must react to the conditions they are presented.

On a related note, several years back the Indianapolis FD operated a 75-foot LTI ladder that was not a quint and did not have a pump. It was a single-role ladder company. I don’t know why, but I saw it several times while at FDIC in the past. At least one northwest suburban FD successfully upgraded their aerial from a 75′ to a 100′ when it was last replaced. Another north suburban FD was able to win an Assistance to Firefighters grant to replace an engine with a 75′ because they had no aerial of their own.

Lastly, if it was a hard fought fight and loss to receive a conciliation prize of “take the 75 or nothing,” then I’d take it. As soon as I had it I would start documenting in details all the reasons it was insufficient in hopes that a 100-footer could be had sometime.
#9 by Rusty on December 18, 2020 - 4:55 PM

Oooohhhhh here comes big bad bully Craig making fun of peoples opinions! Hey Craig if you don’t like people commenting on things why do you come to this site? Go somewhere else. And further more why don’t you get a little Christmas spirit. People have been through enough this year. The last thing they need is a Key Board Warrior criticizing them because a truck should be this or that. Go pick on someone your own size.
#10 by Craig Mack on December 18, 2020 - 1:39 PM

Another episode of fans and slow people spouting off their ignorance of real life knowledge and tactics on chicagoareafire…*sigh*
#11 by MABAS 21 on December 18, 2020 - 11:04 AM

Thanks for the insight Rusty. You are right. I did not realize that the wheelbase was that similar to a tower ladder nor was I aware of the smaller engine size due to weight on the front axle. I was just curious if Frankfort looked into the Metro and Ascendant. I am not a proponent in any way of single rear axle trucks or the the total quint concept. Unfortunately departments sometimes have to sacrifice due to budgets, access or weight issues with apparatus.
#12 by MABAS 21 on December 18, 2020 - 10:49 AM

With so many area departments ordering Rosenbauer apparatus, how are the current ones holding up and working out? In Illinois alone, Wheeling, Grayslake, Newport Twp, Antioch, Sycamore and Troy each have some and Manhattan, Askum, Matteson and now Frankfort have orders in. Rockford had a few frontline, but on commercial chassis. I’ve read in the recent past that Champaign has had issues with them? Were they just bugs because of being new or some serious problems? Can anyone from these departments elaborate some opinions?
#13 by Rusty on December 18, 2020 - 10:39 AM

Mabas21 what would give you the idea that the Single Axle 100ft Ladders would have a shorter wheelbase? The wheelbase on those trucks are predicated by the aerial affixed to the top of the truck. The wheelbase on the light duty single axle aerials are the same as a Tower Ladder. You can get a shorter wheelbase which in turn you get a better turning radius on the tandem axle aerials with more payload and more water. The Acsendant is a falsehood. It has all kinds of drawbacks. Including limited envelope controls. Cummins L9 Engine because the big blocks put too much weight on the front axle. Look into it. The single axle 100fters are light duty. There is no other way to put it. You are buying a Camaro with the tiny V6 in it. Whats the point? And its not like they are any cheaper. They are still over 1 million dollars.
#14 by MABAS 21 on December 18, 2020 - 10:16 AM

I would like to add on to the Chief’s comments regarding reach. For those of you that are not too familiar with Frankfort’s district, there are many single family dwellings with some pretty decent set backs from the street. On top of that there are areas with multi-million $$$ mega mansions that are 2+ stories with multiple peaked steep roofs and lightweight construction. So this is another justification for Frankfort to spec a 100′ or greater aerial ladder.

I do not work at Frankfort, so I don’t know if this will replace Truck 72, the 75′ quint, or Tower 75, which was sold several years ago. I wonder if they looked into single axle quints such as the Pierce 107′ Ascendant or an E-One 100′ Metro for a shorter wheel base, lighter GVWR and maneuvering up tight narrow driveways.
#15 by The Duke of Brockwood on December 18, 2020 - 7:11 AM

The snorkel. DH, those in the know? The thing wasn’t even water proof and was an electrical nightmare. Nothing worked right from day one. The only operator error was no one was smart enough to let it roll into the pond out front of station 1.
#16 by Big Moe on December 18, 2020 - 6:21 AM

Dead on chief. I have been saying for years that a 75′ aerial is going to leave many F.D.’ s short. they are a money grab by manufacturers so they can upsell an engine order into a more expensive quint under the guise of a “do it all” rig, when in fact most have short-comings in compartment space, hose carrying cap., portable ladder inventory, tank water, and main ladder reach. Some towns will lug that aerial around on EMS runs, shopping trips, trouble alarms, etc. for years and never raise the main in anger. 100′ is the minimum in my book whether its a quint or not.
#17 by Drew Smith on December 17, 2020 - 10:48 PM

The “we/they don’t have any tall buildings” is a poor argument for/against a 95-107 foot ladder or tower. Here’s why, IMO: First that length is measured from the ground to the tip or top rail of the platform at the 75-degree climbing angle. At that angle the horizontal reach of the ladder is about 25 percent of the vertical reach so a “100 foot” aerial only reaches out about 25 feet, give or take. With the aerial laid parallel to the ground that reach is only about 92 feet as the first 8 feet (or so) of vertical reach comes from the chassis and not the aerial. When laid horizontal, deduct the width of the aerial and the reach of the outrigger/jack/stabilizer (whatever you want to call it) and the horizontal distance is effectively reduced by 6-9 feet. That hundred foot aerial is now down to about 80-something feet.

If the vertical reach at 75 degrees is 100 feet and the horizontal reach at zero degrees is 80-something feet then the vertical and horizontal reach in between are both less (it doesn’t reach as high and it doesn’t reach as far out). At 30 feet vertical reach the horizontal reach and taking into account the outriggers then the horizontal reach will be about 75 feet. All apparatus specifications will include a graph illustrating this. Many apparatus manufacturers will mount this graph on a plate at the turntable operator’s position. These values are maximized when the ladder is perpendicular or at 90-degrees to the chassis’ front-to-back axis. However, operating in this manner is the least stable. Operating with the ladder over the cab further reduces reach and it may not always be possible to position a rear-mount aerial to operate off its rear.

Apply these thoughts taking into account that in many suburbs the distance from the curb to the build line (front of the structures) is roughly 50 feet. In many apartment complexes the building may be close to the parking lot but with cars parked apparatus may be forced to set up anywhere between 30 and 50-plus feet away from the building. Other encumbrances also may easily be thought of.

Take all of this and apply it to a 75-feet aerial trying to reach the roof of a two-story home or a three-story apartment building. Are you sure it will reach? How do you know? Excepting the E-One CR 137 and the Brontos, since they don’t build aerials longer than “100 feet” the 100-foot ladder or tower is your best bet, IMO.
#18 by Michael m on December 17, 2020 - 9:44 PM

I guess this seems about right. A new suppression vehicle every 3 or so years? They purchased a Pierce engine in 14 for Engine 74, a Pierce Enforcer Pumper-Tanker for engine 73 in 2017 and now this which I am guessing will go to Truck 72 in 2021.
#19 by Michael m on December 17, 2020 - 9:40 PM

Does anyone know how the most recent Pierce Engines are holding up including the 2017 Pumper-Tanker?
#20 by Michael m on December 17, 2020 - 9:37 PM

Looks like it will be a nice aerial ladder! If the Snorkel was damaged by operator error, could they have gotten it fixed since they spent all that money on it? Personally if I was at the top making those decisions. I would have tried to fix the Snorkel.
How tall is the tallest building in their district anyway? I see they are another department that is moving away from Pierce. However now that Hoffman Estates is getting a Pierce Stock truck you never can predict what a department will do.
#21 by Bill on December 17, 2020 - 9:02 PM

I’m sure Frankfort will keep this for a few years n decide they need a tower n sell it. Very poor management in this department
Why would they need a 109 ft ladder there aren’t any buildings that tall
#22 by The DH on December 17, 2020 - 8:59 PM

Rich, from those in the know, the snorkel was not a piece of junk…it was damaged by operator error and was able to be passed off as a lemon…some how they pulled the wool over LTi’s eyes…look at Memphis, they have a new snorkel and it works fine…
#23 by Rich on December 17, 2020 - 8:14 PM

What’s wrong with this district???
They brought 75′ quint and 100′ tower about the same time. Sell the tower and buy 55′ snorkel. Witch turned out to a piece of junk. Now buy a 100′ ladder which has the same foot print as the tower for the most part. They need upper management change.
#24 by harry on December 17, 2020 - 6:48 PM

hope they keep it past 2022 really if towns around here did what a good portion of the us does lease to buy the rigs they would save thousands for instance paklm beach gardens fl got rid of 2 2016 tahoes and made on them and leased 2 2020
#25 by Rob on December 17, 2020 - 3:43 PM

When will this truck be delivered? sometime in 2021