This from Eric Haak:
Found this on YouTube. It was posted recently. There used to be just short clips of this but this is the entire episode. Very entertaining and I wanted to share it. Also interesting to listen for some of the editing mistakes. There were a couple of times that companies were talking on the radio but you know that they weren’t at that fire because of it’s location.
#1 by Scott on November 21, 2013 - 4:54 PM
Having worked lights and sound for this special for A&E back in 1993 some facts: Some of the sound was dubbed in during post production to fill space & for effect. The voice was the longtime driver/operator of 2-7-3 when it was at 116’s.
The “out-take” footage still had some real footage in the original production, just happened that two the actors (Jason Gedrick-Tim & can’t remember the Trk officer/actors name) for Backdraft where assigned with Sqd 5 & 116 for a few weeks to get some real life experince during the time that the documentary footage was being filmed. Some of the fire footage from the fires they where at was in the documentary.
#2 by Mark on November 20, 2013 - 11:05 PM
Somewhere buried in my basement I have a DVD of the material that was cut out of this movie. It’s something like 2 hours of stuff and I showed a couple of the guys from Backdraft doing a ride along with Squad 5.
#3 by Mike Mc on November 19, 2013 - 3:14 PM
Thanks for all the information Bill. The salvage squads are completely forgotten to history. Salvage Squad 2 was the busiest company in the city for a few years. I was told that they frequently ran with as few as three, including the officer. They would perform general squad work but they did carry, and would use, salvage covers.
One has to wonder if Commissioner Quinn ever had a plan of if he was just flying by the seat of his pants. It seems as if everything went down hill since the McCormick Place fire of 1967.
I always thought that one of the hidden tragedies of the 1962 fire that killed Chiefs O’Brien and Hoff in 1962 (beside the obvious loss of life) was that Chief Robert O’Brien, a close firend of Mayor Daley, would have succeeded Quinn as commissioner. Quinn turned 63 in 1968 and I believe that Mayor Daley would have told him to retire in order to make room for O’Brien. Quinn might have remained in some other capacity, like Albert Peterson did, but O’Brien would have been the new commissioner and boss.
Would things have better under O’Brien? Who knows, but an awful lot of chaos and disorganization folllowed for the next ten years under Quinn. Robert J. could have left with his reputation intact.
I always thought that New York has a better system, a commissioner for administration/finance and a chief of department for operations. Sort of like the secretary of defense and the chariman of the joint chiefs.
Chicago’s system produced men that hung around long past their prime and were either good adminisrators and average to below average chiefs, or were excellent chiefs and poor administrators. No names! Let the readers make their own conclusions.
#4 by Bill Post on November 19, 2013 - 12:59 PM
Mike Mc after Salvage Squad 3 was moved from Engine 83’s new station to Engine 22’s new station on July 25th 1971, Salvage Squad 3 would be dispatched on many of the same still alarms as Snorkel Squad 1 would be.
I believe that Salvage Squad 3’s new still district (from Engine 22’s house) went from Division street on the south to Addison on the north and from the Lake Michigan on the east to the Chicago river on the west. Snorkel Squad 1’s still district had gone as far north as Belmont and they went at least as far west as Ashland so on most of the stills that were on Belmont or to the south there would be 2 Squads that were normally dispatched.
Flying Squad 6 didn’t go east of Ashland if the still alarm was south of Bryn Mawr however Flying Squad 6 did go as far south as I believe Fullerton east of the Chicago River Flying Squad 6 normally followed Engine 56 as they were a 4 man company so that area would also get Salvage Squad 3 as well as Flying Squad 6 dispatched on the still alarms. If the fire was actually on Ashland avenue if the fire was south of Belmont Snorkel Squad 1 would be dispatched as well as Salvage Squad 3 and Flying Squad 6.
I”m not sure if Snorkel Squad 1 would go west of Ashland south of Belmont. If the still alarm was west of the River and it was south of Irving Park then Flying Squad 5 would be dispatched and Salvage Squad 6 would also be dispatched. Salvage Squad 6 didn’t respond east of the River as east of the River was considered to be Division 3 and therefore was officially in Salvage Squad 3’s district.
That policy of having the (1968 Salvage Squads) assigned the same areas as their assigned Divisions led to some anomaly’s and was a stupid policy. Here is one of the best examples that I can give you. If there was a fire at Western and Belmont (east or south of the River) Salvage Squad 3 would normally be dispatched on a Still and Box or on a still (when they were located at Engine 22’s house) even though Salvage Squad 6 was only a few blocks away at Engine 106’s quarters. That is probably one of the reasons why in the third or the follow up Maatman report that was released around early 1971 that Salvage Squad 6 and 7 was taken out of service. Salvage Squad 6 was also running many of the same still alarms as Flying Squad 5 and even with Flying Squad 6 in some places.
Salvage Squad 7 was responding to many of the same still alarms as Flying Squad 3 was and perhaps they could have been responding with Flying Squad 2 if the fire was north of 95th street and west of State Street.
By the way the only Salvage Squad that was recommended in the 1968 Maatmen report (consultant study) was Salvage Squad 1 which had already been in service since February of 1967. The 1968 study didn’t recommend the creation of Salvage Squads 3 though 7 and in fact had recommended that Salvage Squad 2 be taken out of service , along with Snorkel Squads 1,2 and 3 and Snorkel 6. Snorkel 2 would have remained in service however.
That short few years when Chicago was running with 7 and then 6 Salvage Squads seemed to be confusing as in October 1968 Salvage Squads 3 through 7 were created then about 6 months later Salvage Squad 1 was taken out of service ( to create Flying Squad 4) while the consultant called for Salvage Squad 1 to remain in service and didn’t even recommend the other 6 Salvage Squads to go in service.
There is no question that Commissioner Quinn had kept Snorkel Squad 1 (his baby) in place of Salvage Squad 1 but that really doesn’t explain the creation of the other 5 Salvage Squads. The rumor was that the Salvage Squads were put in service for the fire insurance ratiings however even the old AIA (American Insurance Associaton fire department grading schedule had not specifically asked for Salvage Squads but only that some companies be equipped with Salvage covers and other equipiment. As you know the Chicago Fire Department did put Salvage covers on all of the Truck and old Squad companies in the 1960’s. In late 1966 and early 1967 extra Salvage covers and Salvage equipment were put on Squads 1 and 2 and they were officially redesignated as Salvage Squads 1 and 2. During 1967 and the first half of 1968 both Salvage Squads 1 and 2 would respond city wide on the same 2-11 Alarms along with all three Snorkel Squads. In the first half of 1967 (just before Squads 3,5,6,8,10 ,11 and 13 were either taken out of service or downgraded to one man companies) there were many areas that would get 7 Squad companies on the 2-11 alarm. Seven squad companies were not an exaggeration either. I was at a 4-11 alarm in the spring of 1967 at a large Apartment building on Albion west of Sheridan road and Squad 4 responded on the Still alarm and the 2-11 Squad was Squad 10 in addition to getting Salvage Squads 1 and 2 and Snorkel Squads 1,2 and 3. An eighth Squad also was dispatched on the 3-11 as normally a Squad would be dispatched on the 3-11 as well.
Around that same few weeks as that 4-11 at Albion and Sheridan road, Squad 3 was totaled in an accident in Washington Park on the south side never to see service again and on June 16th Squads 6 and 13 were taken out of service while Squads 5,8,10 and 11 were to become one many companies that would respond on Still and Box alarms
in their former still districts because they would only have a driver assigned to them so in effect those 4 Squad companies had become supply wagons. In early 1968 Squads 5 ,8 10 and 11 were completely taken out of service and the only remaining Squads were Squads 4 and 9 and Salvage Squads 1 and 2. Squad 4 was converted to Salvage Squad 3 on October 1st 1968 at Engine 83’s station while Squad 9 was taken out of service the day before and had become Salvage Squad 7 on October 1st at Engine 129 quarters. Salvage Squad 1 was relocated from Engine 42’s (old quarters) to Engine 5 while Salvage Squad 2 was relocated from Engine 5’s to Engine 24’s old quarters on the same day. Salvage Squad 4 was put in service at Engine 49’s old quarters and Salvage Squad 5 was put in service at Truck 16’s old quarters at 1405 E 62nd place. That wasn’t Engine 63’s quarters yet as Engine 63 didn’t move in with them until September 2nd 1969 ,almost a year after the Salvage Squad 5 was put in service. Salvage Squads 3 though 7 only lasted between 3 and 4 years while Salvage Squad 1 lasted a little over 2 years while Salvage Squad 2 lasted about 5 years.
By the way it was the Salvage Squads that were the true successors to the original Squad companies as the Salvage Squads were using much of the same equipment that the old Squad companies had on them which included the inhalator/resuscitator’s and the cutting torches. The Salvage Squads still would respond to inhalator (EMS) runs when there were no ambulances available in their areas which is something that the old Squad companies always did. Several of the Salvage Squads were also Chicago’s first “Van Style ” Squads as Salvage Squad 3 and sometime 6 and 7 would be assigned a Dodge Duravan (bread truck) and Salvage Squads 4 and 5 were assigned the old Civil Defense /GMC enclosed Rescue Squads. From a “Salvage duty” point of view it still made no sense to run with the Salvage Squads in the “neighborhoods” and yet take Salvage Squad 1 (the downtown Salvage Squad) out of service a few years before the other Salvage Squads were taken out of service.
#5 by Bill Post on November 19, 2013 - 4:33 AM
Mike I would like to make a grammatical correction that I had noticed after I had sent my comments. The 5 man Engine and Truck companies weren’t supposed to be getting a Squad following them unless they were in SS 1’s district however many of them were getting Salvage Squads dispatched with them until 1972 when the last 4 Salvage Squads were taken out of service.
#6 by Bill Post on November 19, 2013 - 4:25 AM
Mike Mc those are some interesting items that you had brought up. Some of that is news to me also. First however I would like to make a technical correction and that Commission Albrecht had ordered 4 and not 5 of the Ford 3D/Metal Squad rigs so when the 5 new (District) Squads were officially put in service only 4 of them had new rigs and one of them was using an old Mack/Platt Flying Squad and that was the new (at the time) Squad 5 at Engine 47’s house. Snorkel Squad 1 had survived until October 6th 1980 ,along with Flying Squads 2,3,4,5 and 6. Flying Squads 1 and 7 had been taken out of service on June 14 1980. When Commissioner Albrecht had ordered the 4 Ford 3/D Metal Squads I had always thought that they were just going to replace some of the Flying Manpower Squads as it was before there had been the strike. Had the fire fighters not gone on strike I would have figured that in another year or so that Commissioner Albrecht would have just ordered another 3 similar Squad apparatus to replace the rest of the Mack/Platt Squads on the Flying Manpower Squads.
I hadn’t heard anything about Mayor Jane Byrne telling Commissioner Albrecht about making of the companies into 5 man units, unless you mean the companies that were supposed to be running with 5 men to begin with.
As you know when the Flying Manpower Squads were created in 1969 the 5 man companies were specifically organized and assigned to the busy companies on the north , west and south sides as well as the in the HIgh value district downtown. Only the downtown and the near north 5 man companies were supposed to be getting a Squad on still alarms and that was Snorkel Squad 1 while the rest of the 5 man companies overall were supposed to be getting a Squad responding with them on a still alarm. The Flying Manpower Squads by and large originally had their still districts more or less drawn up to respond with the 4 man Engine and Truck companies even though that wasn’t always strictly or totally adhered to it was originally set up pretty close to that concept.
In the beginning a good many of the 5 man companies did have the 4 man (at the time) Salvage Squads go with them on Still alarms and some areas would even get both a Flying Squad and a Salvage Squad assigned to still alarms. There was even a relative smaller area that did get would get three Squads on a still alarm and that was SS 1 , Salvage Squad 3 and Flying Manpower Squad 6. That was for a short period of time though and the Salvage Squads were all out of service by 1973. It is ironic that Salvage Squad 1 was the first Salvage Squad that was taken out of service and they were taken out of service on May 1st 1969 on the day that Flying Squad 4 was created. The next 2 Salvage Squads that were taken out of service were Salvage Squads 6 and 7 and that was on November 16 1971 which was the day that Flying Manpower Squad 7 was created and also was the day that Trucks 43 and 46 were taken out of service and ironically was also the day that the original Snorkel 6 was relocated from the far south side (Engine 46’s quarter’s) to the north side (Engine 110’s quarters).
As you know the firefighter strike of 1980 was a game changer and it my opinion it was ultimately a good thing as it brought all of the Engines and Trucks back up to 5 men (were all of them should have been in the first place).
After the fire fighters strike all of the Engines and Trucks were going to become 5 man companies once again and so that’s when I thought that the decision was made to eliminate two of the Flying Manpower Squads and Snorkel Squad 1 and replace them with one Squad and one separate Snorkel company per each of the new districts. One of the things that I had liked was that when Flying Squad 7 was taken out of service on June 14 th 1980 their Hurst tool was put on Truck company 23. I’m pretty sure that Flying Squad 1’s Hurst tool was given to a nearby Truck company on the southeast side as well.
As far as Snorkel Squad 1 being taken out of service when they put the new “District” Squads in service I really didn’t view it as a bad thing as for the first time since 1967 every area in the City would be getting a Squad company assigned on a “working fire”. Taking Snorkel Squad 1 out of service had also allowed the CFD to put the new Snorkel 4 in service (using SS 1’s Hendrickson Pierce Snorkel) at Engine 123’s house which gave the south side a second Snorkel company as the south side had been running with only one Snorkel company for at least 8 years. It would have been a duplication of services to continue having SS 1 running all over the city on 2-11 alarms (the way it had been) with the New Squads and new Snorkel companies in service. I personally think that the new policy of sending the Squads only on confirmed fires was a good idea (after the Engines and Trucks had the fifth man restored) as that would help reduce the false starts that the Squads would formerly go on. As you recall all of Chicago’s previous Squads would respond automatically on still alarms with the Engines and Trucks which resulted in the many “hold the Squad messages”. That along with the new policy of 2 Truck still alarms (begun by Fire Commissioner Louis Galante) was one of the smartest things that was ever done by the Chicago Fire Department management. That was a great policy that we picked up from New York city that they had been following for years,
Mike as you know New York City’s Rescue companies (which were the equivalent to our Squads) wouldn’t be sent to fires unless they were confirmed by a 10-75 request or if the fire was in the Rescue companies first due fire station district. If there were several calls they might also send a Rescue company but that was the same thing as a confirmed fire or the equivalent to a Chicago Still and Box alarm.
#7 by Mike Mc on November 18, 2013 - 11:42 PM
Bill: SS-1 was a great company. They had their critics, and some were legitimate, but the company produced two Carter H. Harrison award winners, three fire commissioners, at least two chiefs of operations, numerous DDC’s, battalion chiefs, company officers, and at least one suburban chief of department. Their actions at the FF Eugene Craven rescue of 1971, the Illinois Central train crash of 1972, the Forum Restaurant fire of 1973, and the loop el crash of 1977 were exemplary.
I always thought that Bill Quinn and the little people were major reasons why Commissioner Albrecht elected to place them out of service in 1980. Maybe I’m wrong about that.
Quick question for you: Commissioner Albrecht ordered the five Ford squad rigs in 1979, before the strike. He was going to go with five districts and five squad companies. He must have known that the only way it would work was for them to respond on working fires and not still alarms. There would simply not be enough squads to respond on still alarms. Therefore, he must have believed, and perhaps was misled by Mayor Byrne into believing, that the city would soon have five men companies. Any thoughts on that?
A quick irony. SS-1 remained in service February through March, 1980. Fire Commissioner Albrecht rewarded their loyalty by taking them out of service. Mayor Byrne rewarded Commissioner Albrecht’s loyalty by showing him the door.
#8 by Bill Post on November 18, 2013 - 4:21 PM
Mike Mc, that’s an interesting observation that you had made about Squad 5 and the false impression of them running city wide however had the film been made about 20 years earlier that would have been the case with Snorkel Squad 1 which did run city wide on the 2-11″s and even on many of the pin in accidents (at least until 1973 /74 when the Flying Squads were finally given new Rescue Squad type rigs and were equipped with Hurst Tools). Even when Chicago ran with three Snorkel Squads until the late 1960’s all three of them would be dispatched on the same 2-11’s. Up until the mid to late 1970s only the Squads would normally run with the SCBA’s (self contained breathing apparatus) for their crews. When I say the Squads of course I meant the Snorkel Squads and later the Flying Manpower Squads.
Was I disappointed when I had found out the Snorkel Squads 2 and 3 were taken out of service in May of 1969. It’s true that by then they were running without their Snorkels and were renamed “Rescues 2 and 3” but they were still busy companies and by then were Chicago’s only “Heavy Rescue” companies. I had found out several months later that Gerald Maatman the fire departments official consultant had also wanted to take SS 1 out of service and have Salvage Squad 1 run as the “downtown Squad company”. so Commissioner Quinn did at least save “SS 1”.
The fire departments consultant really had nothing against the Snorkel Squads as in his initial study of the CFD in 1963/64 he didn’t recommend eliminating any Snorkel Squads, Snorkels or even Squad company’s but in 1968 “City Hall” had given him orders to find an “efficient” way to run the fire department ( without increasing the payroll). As you may remember in late 1967 the City gave the firefighters an additional day off but the City didn’t want to hire more men so they took most of the remaining Squad companies out of service and started running with less men on the Engines and Trucks on a day to day basis.
#9 by Mike Mc on November 18, 2013 - 1:10 PM
You are thinking of “FDNY: Brothers in Battle” from 1991.
Both documentaries used poetic license to dramatize the events. In the New York one, they referred to working fires as “red devil” instead of a 10-75. In the Chicago one, firegroung traffic from other fires is blatantly dubbed in some of the scenes. It gave the impression that Squad 5 ran city wide. The worst part was when they gave the illusion that Squad 5 would announce on the radio that they were responding to a 2-11, as if the cavalry was on the way to save the day. A husband and wife film maker team rode Squad 5 for almost a year to make it.
At least one other city’s chief of department severly criticized Chicago for not wearing PPE and air masks in some of the scenes.
Captain Bill Nolan and FF Ulysses Brunson are among those shown that have since left us. RIP.
#10 by Jim on November 17, 2013 - 8:50 PM
I think there was one from FDNY also