Chicago orders new ambulances « chicagoareafire.com

Chicago orders new ambulances

This from the Fire Service, Inc. Facebook page

Chicago Fire Department orders ambulances

Fire Service, Inc. Facebook page

thanks Scott

Tags: Chicago FD orders amblances, Chicago Fire Department, Fire Service Inc., Type I Wheeled Coach ambulance

This entry was posted on October 16, 2013, 1:40 PM and is filed under Fire Department News, New Apparatus Order. You can follow any responses to this entry through RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

45 Comments

#1 by Tim Stutzman on November 3, 2013 - 3:10 AM

I’m sad to see Chicago Fire now going with Wheeled Coach ambulances. I’ve been in EMS for 25 years and was also a salesmen for Wheeled Coach, Horton and Braun.

Wheeled Coach is no comparison to Horton or Braun. Wheeled Coach is “mid range” in construction while the Braun and Horton are “high end”. I understand bid cost plays a factor, but far to often the overall costs long term are overlooked let alone the SAFETY for the Medics, which is jeopardized with lower quality constructed trucks.

In my experience as a salesman and EMT, I can assure you that I feel much safer in either a Braun or Horton. There are many crash testimonies to prove my case. A “custom” built Wheeled Coach can improve its overall quality, but it will never match Braun or Horton. Especially the beating these trucks take on the streets of Chicago.

I was fortunate to have the privilege to deliver several Braun ambulances to Chicago Fire. Awesome folks! And it was truly a “privilege” and a feeling of honor if you will. There is a tradition that Chicago Fire has that commands respect. I’m sad to see them going to a lower end truck such as Wheeled Coach. A better option could have been remounts which is ok IF done right. As for Type I vs. the Type III… I guess time will tell. In the city, my vote will be on the Type I holding up better. But a Wheeled Coach Type I will ride much worse than the Brauns they have now.

Lastly, my hat’s off to the men and women of Chicago Fire. You are truly the best!
#2 by tom sullivan on October 23, 2013 - 11:44 AM

bill p.
you mention the 1969 fire show,, that’s a memory I have !

as far as tower ladders , and any other apparatus,, the other comment about them being designed for actual working conditions, reliability, etc. is right on. In my opinion most tower ladders, particularly as used by Chicago,, are bad news. they are too big to maneuver, fit in houses, etc. fdny had it right with the 75 ‘ aerial scopes.
certain Chicago towers have been a nightmare for maintenance,, ease of use for both main & ground ladders, and reliable fireground operations.
#3 by ff24/7 on October 23, 2013 - 1:08 AM

Yea the Dash CF is the best apparatus out there (my opinion) but for the city to get them with the quantity there getting will cost a lot of money since its the most expensive chassis. You can spec out Pierce cabs anyway you want, if you need more room spec it out that way.
#4 by Robert on October 22, 2013 - 9:46 PM

I agree with Josh. The Spartans are so much better when it comes to room. Plus the unit is much better over all. Hope to see Spartan towers.
#5 by Josh on October 22, 2013 - 5:46 PM

When you guys are talking about Pierce Cabs for TL’s. Just a little note. A suburb in Dupage County has a brand new Pierce TL on an Arrow XT chassis, There is NO room inside that cab what so ever, especially with the EMS cabinet. Granted depending on how big the guy is, there is less. When you look at the Pierce Trucks in the city now, There hardly is any room. On the other hand, The Spartans have more room for the back step guys. We have a spartan chassis by us and we love it.
#6 by Scott on October 22, 2013 - 4:32 PM

RE: Chicago Snorkels, they’re supposed to be Rosenbauer, so if so aren’t they in South Dakota? Or did they move to Minnesota? Thanks!
#7 by Scott on October 22, 2013 - 4:30 PM

In regards to the comments about the “wishing” the City go with the Pierce Arrow XT or the Velocity cab; are you fireman or fans? Just curious cause working on a TL for a long time i’d beg to differ. Granted, all opinion and preference. What really matters is not the cosmetics but how well it works for the guys riding it; space, ease of use, features for practical application (not a parade vehicle!). Comes down to how the rig and cab are spec’d, regardless of manufacturer.

For my opinion, the Pierce DASH CF cab if spec’d the right way would be the one I’d go with! I’ve also seen some good Spartan ERV’s, Crimson & E-Ones, not sure of what model cab for the Spartans or the E-Ones, but again, if spec’d right for practical application, they are just as good.
#8 by NJ on October 22, 2013 - 9:13 AM

So, according to the contract, which is finally up, the city has contracted for 70 Type III and 30 Type I ambo’s. Any ideas on the thoughts behind this?
#9 by NJ on October 21, 2013 - 3:00 PM

FFEMT, I totally agree. The interesting (scary?) thing is the drawings here for the contract very clearly show the snorkel unit as a two seater. If no one noticed that or didn’t think about it, that’s quite a mess now.
#10 by FFEMT on October 21, 2013 - 2:06 PM

Bob…that would require an entire redesign of the snorkel…going from a 2 door cab to a full cab. And that would have been a big thing discussed when they were writing the specs…………..
#11 by NJ on October 21, 2013 - 9:09 AM

Just as an FYI, the new FDNY ambo’s, Dodge’s with the crew cabs are made by Wheeled Coach.
#12 by JS on October 19, 2013 - 11:24 AM

Wheeled Coach puts a little more quality into their custom built rigs, but from what I’ve observed – not by a lot. I’d say a custom built one (and only with stringent oversight by the bidding agency) would be “OK” at best for suburban use, but not for inner city. Wheeled Coach specializes in “cookie cutter” ambulances – they can and do build custom, but prefer to push the pre-manufactured rigs sitting on their lot at the factory.

Other manufacturers (Braun, Horton) have no problem building custom from the ground up – that’s mostly their bread and butter. While they definitely cost more initially, overall reliability/craftsmanship is better. (Horton has an assembly line dedicated solely to FDNY, and their very exacting specs.)

I think the conversion will be the least of their worries, though. I know from personal experience that gasoline engines (even the brand new ones) don’t work well in ambulances. Just my two cents, but I think the city is indeed being a penny wise, pound foolish. Only time will tell, and it will be interesting to see what transpires with both the fire and EMS side of new arrivals.
#13 by Bob on October 19, 2013 - 3:59 AM

The Squads have not even started to be built yet. The city sent a Battalion Chief to Minnesota a couple months ago to go over the final specifics on the “new squads”. The snorkel has seating for 2 members and the Chief explained to them that there has to be seating for 5 for when the “box” goes out of service and the snorkel is the front running rig.
#14 by Bill Post on October 18, 2013 - 6:15 PM

Matthew that’s a good question at to the Tower Ladders and that can’t be discounted. There are several other Tower Ladder manufacturers out there as well which includes E/One ,KME American La France (who took over LTI ,Seagrave and Spartan/ERV.
I know that several years ago several of those companie had bid on straight Aerial Ladders for Chicago and that Chicago had rejected the bids about 3 times before finally going with Spartan/Erv.
I know that E/One , Pierce, Spartan/Erv and I think that Ferarra had submitted bids.
It would be interesting to see who submits bids for Chicago’s new Tower Ladders. According to another poster on this site E/One is supposed to manufacturing a good product currently. As of late KME has been getting alot of contracts in other well known big cities and that is because they make a cheaper product of course , however I have also been hearing that their quality has been slowly improving. They still aren’t well known for their quality however.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Chicago ends up with Spartan/ERV again as that company seems to have been getting most of our business in recent years.Who knows we’ll just have to wait and see when bids are requested and see what happens.
#15 by Bill Post on October 18, 2013 - 5:56 PM

Mike, there’s no question that your theory of the 85 foot Ladders being built for the Department of Forestry or for another city department does make the most practical sense.
Speaking of odd ball one of a kind rigs , I wonder where the late Fire Commissioner Quinn got the idea to purchase Chicago’s Morita 135 foot Skylift Aerial from?. The Morita lift happened to be a Japanese company and I was wondering if Bob Quinn had visited Japan or whether a visiting fire Chief or representative from the Morita company happened to be in Chicago and met with the late Fire Commissioner and suggest trying out the Morita Lift. I recall the Chicago did very often receive visiting fire Chiefs from overseas and perhaps that’s where Commissioner Quinn got the idea from.
Chicago was noted (especially under the late Commissioner Quinn) for trying out unique apparatus that really stood out.
I was really surprised that Chicago had never purchased any Calavar Firebirds that were telescopic Snorkels that went as high as 150 feet and were build in southern California.
I was fortunate enough to attend the outside demonstrations of the fire apparatus at the 1969 International Fire Chiefs Show and convention at the old (and sorely missed) International Amphitheater at Halsted and 44th (near the entrance to the Old Union Stockyards), In the parking lot that was just west of the Amphitheater Calavar had been demonstrating a 125 foot Firebird Snorkel and it was on a Seagrave chassis that was painted yellow.
That demonstrator or a similar model was sold to the Philadelphia fire department where it was painted red and served as Philadelphia’s Ladder 2 for a number of years.
Within a year after that show Chicago had purchased the 1971 Ford/Pierce 55 foot Snorkel/Quint that was first assigned to Snorkel 3 (when they were at Engine 60) and then reassigned to Snorkel 6 (at Engine 110) within 2 years.
Was that a let down. While Calavar had debuted it’s new Firebird in Chicago and Chicago ends up getting a puny 55 foot Snorkel on what was in effect built on Commercial (C cab) Engine chassis.
Chicago really needs to get either a 135 foot Bronto Skylift (articulated telescopic Snorkel) marketed by Pierce or a 136 foot Spartan/ERV Telstar articulated boom and Platform which is very similar to a Bronto Skylift.

I realize that Chicago probably can’t afford these rigs and we really needs at least 4 new Tower Ladders (just to keep up to date) but for the future the 135 foot platform should be on Chicago’s “to buy list”.
The 135 foot Bronto or the 136 foot Spartan Erv Telstar are what should be replacing the Reserve Snorkel as Engine 35 except they should go in service either at Aerial Tower 1 or Truck 3 which is where Chicago’s two 135 foot E/One Aerial Ladders where located in the 1990’s.
#16 by Matthew G on October 18, 2013 - 5:54 PM

Wheeled Coach seems to be one of the more popular manufactures to order from nowadays (i.e Elgin, Oak Lawn, Rockford, Lincolnwood, Leyden,etc.) I know from experience that their cheaper models are garbage but their more expensive custom models are supposed to better (i.e no wood or fiberglass). Correct me if I’m wrong. As for the towers, Pierce, Smeal and Ferrara make 85′ towers. Is Chicago searching for another ladder manufacturer?
#17 by Mike Lopina on October 18, 2013 - 9:19 AM

Bill- I know the Aerialscopes are only 75′ & 95’… I was just trying to get the nest unsettled. LOL! Nobody is making 85′ aerials anymore… LTI used to make an 85′ for TL’s but they are out of business. The listings don’t say Fire, Forestry, Streets & San, etc; just “Fleet” so, as I stated, there is no telling what those (other than the TL’s) other “aerial” vehicles are for. Lots of good ideas and thoughts on here… helps to have different perspectives when spec’ing out rigs.
#18 by Bill Post on October 17, 2013 - 11:36 PM

Mike Mc , the only rig that I knew of that was painted blue was the same Mack MB style rig that was originally assigned to Snorkel Squad 1 as their second Snorkel rig and the first one that was built totally new. Snorkel Squad 1’s original Snorkel was using the chassis and Cab of one Chicago’s 5 1956 High Pressure Wagons. I’m not sure but you could be right about one of the other of the first of three Chicago Snorkels which were the 1959 model Ford/ Hi Ranger Snorkels that had been assigned to Snorkels 2 and 3. Snorkel 2 was about 75 feet and Snorkel 3 was about 65 feet.
I really know about as much as you do when it comes to what rigs went to the Streets and Sanitation department.
#19 by Mike Mc on October 17, 2013 - 10:48 PM

Bill: Speaking of ladders and towers used by departments other than the fire department, do you have any knowledge as to how many of the CFD’s old (really old) snorkels and snorkel squads ended their days as streets and sanitation rigs?

I saw Snorkel Squad 1’s 1967 Mack MB rig in the streets and sanitation yard near 103rd and Stony Island about 12 years ago. It was painted blue. As a kid, I believe I saw streets and sanitation rigs that resembled snorkels 2 and 3. I may have also seen an International Harvester Snorkel Squad rig, but I cant’ be sure. Many streets and sanitation rigs were on International Harvester cabs back in the 1960’s and 1970’s.

May seem like an odd topic, but I was wondering if you knew.
#20 by Bill Post on October 17, 2013 - 8:55 PM

By the way Mike those New York City Aerialscopes (what they call Tower Ladders) only come in two sizes 75 feet and 95 feet. They started building the 95 foot model in the mid 1980’s and New York had wanted to replace all of it’s 75 foot models with the 95 footers however it was found that many of the stations where Aerialscopes were located either weren’t long enough to house the larger model or the floors of the stations couldn’t hold the weight so to this day only 14 of New York’s 61 Tower Ladders are 95 foot models and the remaining 47 are all 75 foot models.s
I hope that you are correct and that the 85 foot Aerial Ladder are really for other departments. However wouldn’t they be listed as utility baskets with ladders as opposed to calling them “Aerial Ladders”?
#21 by FFEMT on October 17, 2013 - 5:08 PM

I love that everyone is critiquing the city’s every buying decision….based on a 4 sentence Facebook post by the dealer. Just saying.
#22 by Mike Lopina on October 17, 2013 - 2:22 PM

Thanks for the info on the link. I’m guessing those 85’s “aerials” are baskets for the Dept of Forestry… there is also a listing further down for “Utility & Aerial trucks” that may be baskets for Streets & San. It’s all genericly listed under “Fleet” so there is no telling. Let’s start the rumor that they’re getting 85′ mid-mount TL’s ala FDNY.
#23 by NJ on October 17, 2013 - 1:27 PM

Drew, you are correct. I was just referring to the Fords that the city buys. There are no Ford Type III diesels anymore.
#24 by Drew Smith on October 17, 2013 - 1:16 PM

Being Type I or Type III has nothing to do with motors being gasoline or diesel. The typing is strictly from the Fed’s KKK spec and now is incorporated into NFPA 1917, the standard for construction of ambulances. While Ford currently only offers a Type III in gasoline, Chevy makes a Type III in diesel. Not sure what Dodge makes.

Prior to the mid-80s all ambulances were gasoline. A series of fires in ambulances related to then-new EPA emissions requirements were to blame. The emission requirement made it necessary for the motor to run much hotter. With a carbureted vs. injected fuel intake the heat ignited fuel which spread to the motor to the whole ambulance. Many tricks were tried by a lot of departments including electric cooling fans, hood scoops like dragsters, etc. but none of it worked. Also during this time it was realized that many Type IIIs were near being overweight before personnel and patients were added. It was not uncommon for a newly constructed ambulance to be scaled and find an available GVW for equipment, patient, and personnel that was well under 1,000 pounds. This resulted in the adoption of the medium-duty chassis (referred to in the KKK spec and NFPA 1917 as additional duty). Ford responded with its Super Duty 450 and 550 chassis. On a related note, the use of the MD or AD chassis requires drivers to possess a Class C license as these chassis have a GVW over 16,000 but less than 26,001 pounds. Many FFs will be OK as they have a Class B license but those who hold only a Class D are at risk should they be involved in a crash and a sharp lawyer discovers such.
#25 by CFD 1979 on October 17, 2013 - 1:04 PM

If you’re ordering tower ladders, the city has to go with E-One. Much better than Pierce
#26 by NJ on October 17, 2013 - 11:01 AM

Bill, yes. CFD ambo’s are already on the smaller side of what a lot of city fire/ems depts are running. I have a feeling this decision (and the 85′ ladders) are going to come back and bite us big time in a couple of years.
#27 by Bill Post on October 17, 2013 - 10:55 AM

Yes I’m afraid of what you are suggesting NJ. It also would show a profound stupidity on behalf of the city administration and the department of Fleet Management as 85 foot Aerials are not a standard model or size any more. I find that most Aerial Ladders are 100 feet or slightly taller and the smaller ones tend to be 75 feet which are generally designed for smaller
“Quints”. KME makes a 79 foot Aerial but that is more like an extended 75 footer. The last time Chicago purchased 85 foot Aerial Ladders were Chicago’s last order of 85 foot Tillered Wooden Aerials on 1956 FWD chassis and were a classic Chicago rig and Chassis in the 1950’s.
Purchasing 85 foot Aerials for the outlying areas would not be a good idea as there are taller structures in those areas also and Trucks change quarters into other areas also.
#28 by Bill Post on October 17, 2013 - 10:21 AM

As long as the subject Engine 99 quarters and how well an ambulance fits or doesn’t in their quarters, as recent as 2009 the CFD was talking about working with the Public Building Commission to build an addition to both Engine 99 and Engine 71’s stations. These were proposals however it appears that due to economic reasons the weren’t pursued any further. It was pretty obvious that the additions to these two stations would have made space for ambulances.
It is surprising that Chicago is ordering two models of Ambulances simultaneously. My main interest is will the size and dimension of the “box” or body of the Ambulance be any smaller then what they are today?. I wouldn’t want the dimensions of the Ambulance body’s to get any smaller then what they current are.
#29 by NJ on October 17, 2013 - 9:09 AM

BTW, based on the Estimated Value, the city is planning to order far more than one 85″ aerial. Maybe they’re gonna go cheaper and use the smaller ones in the outlying areas where buildings are not generally as tall.

The MO of the current city admin seems to be go penny wise dollar dumber than heck.
#30 by NJ on October 17, 2013 - 8:57 AM

0.02

There is a large difference between Type I and III. Type I is built on a truck chassis, is diesel and is much heavier duty. Type III is built on a van chassis, uses gas and lighter duty. Considering the beating CFD ambo’s take, I’m thinking they went penny wise, pound foolish.

I know they’ve had trouble with the F-450’s and the two new F-350’s have sucked, but there are other options. FDNY switched to a Dodge 4500 chassis (actually they also went with crew cabs) and seem to be happy. I would rather have seen them switch to a Dodge Type I chassis that a Type III.

As for fitting in the houses, with the exception of 86, all the ambo’s have been Type I since the early 2000’s. Since CFD specifies all specs on the ambo’s this would not have been an issue all of a sudden. Most houses are no issue at all. A few like Ambo 23 and 11 are a tight squeeze, but they fit.

Again, the order specifies both Types, which is quite curious and unprecedented in CFD procurement history (at least recent history).
#31 by JS on October 17, 2013 - 3:05 AM

Funny how what’s old is new again. In the 80s and early 90s, CFD used Wheeled Coach before switching to the McCoy Miller mini mods. Most of the 80s models were gassers, and were a variety of Type II (van) and Type I (on an F series chassis…think the ambos used in Backdraft.) I think they’ll regret going with Wheeled Coach (I’ve worked out of one many a time…nothing but cheap fiberglass, glued-together wood cabinets [that are quiet, but if you get in a wreck, you’ll be wearing them], sliding cabinet doors coming off their track, and overall poor craftsmanship. Paint and corrosion issues galore, etc. Under extreme duty use, I wouldn’t anticipate more than 2-3 years max for the conversion.

As for the chassis/powertrain – fuel economy aside (not that it matters in an ambulance – but 4-5 MPG if you’re lucky, and no dual tanks on the new ones like the 80s models had) – but the gassers seem to have a problem with oil consumption. I know of a friend (whose ambulance had barely 10,000 miles on it) use a quart and a half in less than 300 miles. On the plus side – they’re disposable rigs!
#32 by ff24/7 on October 17, 2013 - 1:18 AM

I hope they go with pierce for there tower ladders and other truck the arrow xt chassis would be awesome. and does anyone know anything about the squads/snorkels they ordered? should be coming soon
#33 by The DH on October 16, 2013 - 10:55 PM

Mike if you go to the homepage of Chicago DPS and under Most Recent News, the June 18, 2013 posting for the “Buying Plan” shows it on page 19:

http://www.cityofchicago.org/content/city/en/depts/dps/provdrs/events/news/2013/jun/dps_2q2013_-_3q2014buyingplan.html
#34 by Mike Lopina on October 16, 2013 - 9:59 PM

Hey, Bill- Where did you see the proposal for the 85′ aerials? I was looking on the procurement site but could not find it. If you could post the link, that would be great. Thanks!
#35 by Evan Davis on October 16, 2013 - 7:39 PM

From my understanding, Ford will continue to produce the E series cutaway chassis for box ambulances, box trucks, and what not, but replace the van with the new European looking transit. Not a big fan of the transit, but we’ll see how it works.
#36 by Martin Nowak on October 16, 2013 - 7:15 PM

Finally those old Ford E-series can be replaced.
#37 by Bill Post on October 16, 2013 - 6:49 PM

I know that this comment has nothing to do with Ambulances but I found on the cities Department of Procurement purchasing plan that City plans to order an 85 foot Aerial Ladder in addition to 100 foot Tower Ladders and recently ordered Foam Pumpers and of course the Ambulances.
While most of us presumably know about the Tower Ladders ,Foam Pumpers and Ambulances I really wonder what the 85 foot Aerial Ladder is all about?
#38 by Scott on October 16, 2013 - 6:03 PM

The E Series is still available but in a 10cylinder gas engine. No more diesels.
#39 by 0.02 on October 16, 2013 - 4:22 PM

I don’t think there’s any difference between the type 1 and 3 other then one has a pass through between the cab an the mod and the other doesn’t. There are some crowded houses where the F series won’t fit. Engine 99’s house is an example. They can’t fit an F series and the engine inside because the rigs are to long.
#40 by NJ on October 16, 2013 - 4:09 PM

The other interesting point is safety. Given the accidents that 89 and 82 had, the F series is safer with that long hood.
#41 by NJ on October 16, 2013 - 4:07 PM

Interesting also that the contract is for both Type I and Type III. Are they going to start running non common ambo’s?

AFAIK the prior city contracts have always been for one type, be they I, II or III.
#42 by Chris S. on October 16, 2013 - 3:41 PM

Sad to see the city is going back to the E series chassis, just really dislike this type. The E series won’t be around muck longer as Ford is dropping the full size van in favor of the Transit chassis popular in Europe.
#43 by NJ on October 16, 2013 - 3:06 PM

Wonder what the deciding factor was on going back to Type III was.

I know the new 10 and 30 are total crap, always in the shops and OOS for breakdowns.

I know Type III will be less expensive and I know the current Type I F450’s have had cracking issues.

I just wonder if they’ll hold up as long and as well to the brutal use they get.
- #44 by Shaan Smith on October 19, 2013 - 11:31 AM
  
  Chicago fire department for new tower ladders Chicago fire department should go for pierce velocity that would be a dream come true that would be huge
  - #45 by Shaan Smith on October 19, 2013 - 11:37 AM
    
    I also think they should go for pierce arrow xt for new tower ladders that would be huge they will not go for e-one or fierrara or kme or segrave I bet pierce wins the bet for new tower ladders for the Chicago fire department