This from a reader:
I saw a new FDNY squad on it’s way to New York on the highway in Indiana.
Mike Maida
Seagrave unit enroute to New York City. Mike Maida photo
FDNY requires that all department markings be covered during delivery. Mike Maida photo
Seagrave delivery of a new FDNY squad. Mike Maida photo
#1 by Bill Post on November 23, 2013 - 5:56 PM
Crabby these people who grumble about sending a fire engine to an EMS call don’t know what the h-ll what they are talking about.
In Chicago one of the smartest thing that had ever been done was starting the ambulance assist program in the mid 1980’s under Fire Commissioner Louis Galante. That was something that had been long overdue as most of Chicago’s suburbs and some other cities had been send fire apparatus as first responders and “Ambulance assist” units for many years.
In the case of cardiac and respiratory arrest , choking and trauma calls that “fire engine” can make a big difference. In the early 1980’s before Chicago went to the Ambulance assist program , only an ambulance would be dispatched to the scene of the incident ,no matter how far away they were. When the ambulance had arrived on the scene if they had a cardiac arrest they would call for another ambulance to help them out as there were only 2 people on board. It could sometimes take 10 or more minutes for the second ambulance to arrive on the scene and then the second ambulance would have to follow the first one to the hospital while the one second ambulances paramedics were riding the back of the first ambulance to aide the first ambulance’s paramedic. If CPR wasn’t being performed from the onset in the first place the chances of the patients survival weren’t too good anyway. Had a fire company been dispatched they might have arrived on the scene before the ambulance and the patient would have a had a better chance of survival and they wouldn’t need to call and wait for a second ambulance just to get enough manpower on the scene.
That scenario was played out in Chicago many times over before the ambulance assist program was in place.
While in the beginning some of the firefighters didn’t like running on EMS calls it was able to save some lives.
Some people (both firemen and civilians) might not have realized that from the beginning in Chicago it was so called “fire engines” and not ambulances that would be sent on most of your life threatening EMS runs instead of the ambulances.
For many years from about 1916 to 1955 it was Chicago’s Squad companies that would be dispatched on heart attacks ,strokes ,drownings etc. After 1955 Chicago fire department ambulances would usually be the first due company on most EMS runs however if the nearest ambulance was out on another run then the Squad company would be dispatched if it was a run that required a resuscitator or the administration of oxygen on the scene.
The Chicago fire department didn’t provide ambulance service to the public until 1946 and it wasn’t until mid 1955 that ambulances became “first due” on what became known as an “inhalator run”. Before 1955 the Ambulances were only first due on accidents with injuries. Even after 1955 the Chicago Fire Department ambulances were not allowed to remove patients from a private residence (meaning a house or an apartment) to the hospital, The ambulance crews would arrive and administer oxygen and used the resuscitator (also known as the pulmotor)) on the patient but they would usually have to wait for the arrival of doctor a or a private ambulance to release them from the scene. It is ironic but the Chicago police would also dispatch what is known in Chicago as a “Squadrol” which was a prisoner van (paddy wagon) that also had a simple metal and canvas frame cot (stretcher) on board and was used for “sick removals” and for removing “DOAS” from the scene. The police wagons (squadrols) didn’t carry oxygen or an inhalator on board yet they were allowed to make “sick removals” from private residences and the fire department ambulances (which were real Ambulances) weren’t allowed to do that.
Something tells me that might have been part of an agreement between the city and the private ambulance companies so that the “private ambulance companies can get “their’s”. It wasn’t until 1972 that the Chicago Fire Department ambulances were officially allowed to remove patients from private residences to the hospital. That policy had actually begun in mid 1970 when 8 “Model Cities” ambulances were put in service in several Chicago Fire Stations that were adjacent to certain specified areas that were designated by the government as “Model Cities neighborhoods” where the Model Cities ambulances were allowed to make removals from private residences within the specified areas. While the “Model Cities” ambulances were located in Chicago fire stations they were originally not part of the Chicago fire department however they were dispatched by the Chicago fire department and were assigned firefighters as drivers but the “attendants” were manned by mainly Vietnam Veterans that were hired and trained by the “Model Cities program” and they only responded to and made removals from their specified neighborhoods. Of the eight Model cities ambulances two of them were Red over white Ford Econoline Vans and the other 6 were all white Pontiac ambulances that were smaller then the Chicago Fire Departments (nicer and larger) Cadillac ambulances. These were ambulances 31 through 38 and only Ambulances 32 ,36 and 37 are not located with the fire companies that they were originally put in service with. Ambulance 32 was originally located at Flying Squad 6’s first house at 2100 W Eastwood (formerly Engine 128), Ambulance 36 was located with Engine 61 at 5349 S Wabash and Ambulance 37 at Engine 122’s old house at 6858 S Indiana. When Ambulance 38 was put in service at Engine 60’s station ,Ambulance 25 was located with them except that Ambulance 25 covered the area out of the “Model Cities zone. While Ambulances 33, 34 and 35 are not in the same stations where they were put in service at, they are still located with the same companies and were only relocated to newer stations in the same neighborhoods (that replaced the older houses). Ambulance 36 is also in the same neighborhood where they were put in\service at but are located with different companies. In 1972 the Chicago Fire Department took over ambulances 31 though 32 when the Model CIties program lost it’s federal funding and that is also when the City Council changed the law permitting all Chicago FIre Department ambulances to make patient removals from private residences city wide. Ambulance 25 was also relocated to Truck 61’s new station on the far south side in April of 1972 which allowed Ambulance 38 to take over Ambulance 25’s former district while putting an Ambulance in service in area that previously didn’t have any space for one (before Truck 61’s new quarters were opened).
By the way Chicago’s original Squad companies which responded on many EMS runs from 1916 until 1967/68 when they were taken out of service weren’t strickly an EMS company but were both a manpower and rescue company so they were automatically dispatched on all reported structure fires (still alarms) in their still districts along with the first due Engine and Truck company which is one of the reasons why Chicago’s “Original Squads” were so busy and were known as the work horses of the Chicago Fire Department. They normally ran with 6 men. For about 3 years from December of 1929 to June of 1933 three Rescue companies were put in service whose main job was respond to special duty runs which included EMS type runs that had been handled by the Squads so the Squads would be more available for fires however the Rescue companies were taken out service because of the Depression and the Squads resumed going on “Special Duty” as well as fire runs, until they were ultimately were taken out of service in the 1960’s.
#2 by Crabby Milton on November 23, 2013 - 11:48 AM
I don’t work for MFD but private ambo’s usually show up in fairly short order. Most of the time as some know, the MED units are dispatched at the same time an engine or ladder company is to a medical situation. But odd are they will get to the scene before the MED will. Then they determine if a MED is needed and if it’s not, they send for a private ambo. for transport and cancel the MED thereby freeing them up. That’s why I hate the idea of any sort of brownouts. People grumble that they send a fire engine to a med call but they engine is acting as a squad. But I guess they expect them to take a cab to the scene instead.
#3 by MG on November 22, 2013 - 9:04 PM
Bill, coming from working in the privates in Chicago for a time, i know the 3 major ones in the area licensed to run in the city that are all operating under the Chicago EMS system; ATI, Lifeline and Med Ex; all have large fleets of ambulances of mixed ALS/BLS amounts (ATI has 30, Lifeline 25 and Med Ex has 50 so 105 in total). I don’t know how that would work with the 911-system based with the run totals in Chicago but it’d be an interesting trial to divide up the BLS calls to the privates and the ALS calls to the 60 current CFD ALS ambos. I still would have a feeling there would be increased wait times and talking with medics I see often from Bell (in Milwaukee), even they get dispatched to ALS calls that MFD cannot respond to for transport with their own rigs. My understanding (its limited, Crabby can answer the question better than I can) is that wait times in Milwaukee are not bad.
#4 by Ron V. on November 22, 2013 - 10:53 PM
Yeah. After working the last 35 years in Milwaukee I’ll have to say I never saw a private Ambo. Co. Transport a ALS patient for the mfd. They went on some ALS runs but most of the time they were called by the patient or family before or after calling the mfd. Waiting for the privates wasn’t that bad. On holidays, bad or humid weather u might have to wait longer.
#5 by Ron V. on November 22, 2013 - 6:40 PM
Yeah L-11 & L-13 are no longer. I came on at E-3 & L-8 many years ago.
#6 by Bill Post on November 22, 2013 - 6:12 PM
Mike Mc they didn’t officially change it from FDNY to NYFD . That was my typing. I agree with Crabby that it’s a shame they went to open sky and it was Ladder 13 that you had in mind that now is being covered y Rescue 2.
Personally I prefer to see them still use the Truck companies on “stills” and let them use the Rescues only when they are really needed.
It’s a shame to see that the fire department is being butchered with the brownouts and both fire companies and manpower being slowly whittled away.
Remember when they went to 4 man Engines and kept the Trucks at 5 men, That didn’t last too long before they made the Trucks into 4 man companies and then they took Ladder 10 out of service. That wasn’t enough for them however as now Engine 3 is out of service and they moved Tower Ladder 1 to their station so that the Scuba Unit can be manned. I remember when Engine 3 had their own Ladder company without having to move Tower Ladder 1 to keep the station open. When Milwaukee had a Truck at Engine 3 it was a Mack/Aerialscope (New York Style) while Ladder 1 at Engine one used a Snorkel also on a Mack CF chassis,
I do find their EMS system interesting however and I know that is modeled after the system in Seatlle where the fire department only handles the life threatening emergencies while the city is divided up among 3 private ambulance companies that do the BLS removals. I know that the FIre department stays on the scene with the patient until the ambulances arrives. I hope that they don’t have to wait too long.
I’m afraid that if they did that in Chicago that fire companies would have to wait a long time for a private BLS ambulance to show up ,because they would be overwhelmed with BLS runs. It still might be something to look into though.
#7 by Mike Mc on November 22, 2013 - 3:34 PM
Thanks Bill. I have been told that in New York, it is very difficult to get senior FFs on an engine company. They all want truck duty in order to avoid EMS runs.
By the way, is it now officically NYFD and no longer FDNY?
#8 by Crabby Milton on November 22, 2013 - 2:55 PM
Mike Mc. I really don’t have an accurate answer for you. With all of these rolling brownouts, it seems to be different all the time. I mean some stations now share engine companies depending on which stations are closed that day or days. MFD is on OPENSKY so it’s hard to keep track of things. Very Sad.
#9 by Bill Post on November 22, 2013 - 2:49 PM
MIke Mc , I continually have been hearing about New York City having some tough requirements in their specs and conditions in order to bid on their apparatus contracts. Because New York City is supposedly so particular is one of the reasons that I had read that Pierce hasn’t really submitted bids for their major apparatus orders as of late. Of course winning a contract with New York CIty can be quite lucrative and prestigious and that’s probably why KME decided to submit a bid for their Engine contract. As you can see Ferrara has been doing quite well for themselves winning the contract to build New York’s rear mounted Aerial Ladders and their Rescue and other “Special Operations apparatus”. I understand that they had been having some problems with Seagrave a few years ago however as you can see Seagrave is still in the game as New York has been getting several Tillered Aerial Ladders delivered during the last year as well as the famous Aerialscopes that New York City buys exclusively and of course the Squads are still coming from Seagrave. Just about the only apparatus that New York City has never purchased from Seagrave are the Rescue company apparatus.
Apparently KME is able to meet New York City’s spec requirements, for Engine companies. Now let’s see how well they actually hold up after they hit the streets of New York. The order is for 91 Engines spread out over 3 years.
That New York City contract with the firefighters union is really something I had no idea that were able to include mandatory time frame for retiring fire apparatus in the contract. I do know that New York CIty has been providing first responder service on life threatening emergencies with their Engine companies since the early to mid 1990’s. The intention of the New York City FIre Department was also to have their Ladder companies also to respond on life threatening emergencies when the nearest Engine wasn’t available however due to the extra pay demands of union (for having Ladder crews respond on some EMS runs) is what keeps the NYFD from send out Trucks as fire responder’s and it really had nothing to do with wear and tear their Trucks. There are specific types of life threatening EMS calls that a first responder will be dispatched on however if the Engine in the station is not available and there is a Ladder company in the station the Ladder company will not be sent (unlike Chicago and most other cities) and the second due Engine from a more distant station will be sent out instead.
#10 by Mike Mc on November 22, 2013 - 12:49 PM
Crabby: Speaking of Milwaukee and squads, how are the two resuce companies doing in their trial basis? Will they be made permanent? Will Ladder 11 and (I forget the other ladder) be offically placed out of service?
#11 by Crabby Milton on November 22, 2013 - 11:29 AM
Sadly, those are similar guidlines for transit buses where the feds fund them for 12 years and then the agency is on their own. So there is not much incentive to build the bus to last as long as it could be since they are likely to dispose of the things in about 12-15 years. But individual fire departments can do their own thing and most just replace them as needed and much longer than 10 years. Not sure about CFD but Milwaukee usually keeps rigs these day for about 15-20 years.
#12 by Mike Mc on November 22, 2013 - 10:10 AM
Per union contract, the FDNY has to replace their apparatus after ten years, irregardless of the condition of the apparatus. Under such guidelines, going with an allegedly lower quality and cheaper apparatus manufacturer makes a lot of sense.
I’m sure the clause was put in the contract because of past abuses, but times have changed. Too bad they could not reach a reasonable compromise.
#13 by Crabby Milton on November 22, 2013 - 5:59 AM
I live in Milwaukee and Highway 45 runs thru Milwaukee County. Both SEAGRAVE and PIERCE have their plants along this highway so it’s a matter of time if you drive this highway that you will see a SEAGRAVE or PIERCE coming south. It’s true that you get what you pay for. Sure, you can buy a product that works just as well and looks as good at a lower price but mnay times, you will kick yourself later. But then again, why can’t KME get it together and do things right? Seems the idea is NOT to tick off customers rather than the reverse.
#14 by Bill Post on November 21, 2013 - 11:02 PM
It’s great to see that New York still buys at least some of it’s “rig’s” from Seagrave because I have real shocker for you. The next contract for straight Engine companies for New York City is with (yes it is hard to believe) KME.
Many people know what the unofficial acronym (meaning of) KME is known to mean. They have had the reputation of being among the cheapest (both in price and in quality) out there. Because of the poor economy quite a few departments that had been good Pierce and Seagrave customers have been giving more of their business to KME. Philadelphia has been purchasing KME pumpers and several other KME vehicles for over 10 years now however KME is a local company that is located less then 100 miles north of Philadelphia. Los Angeles County has been purchasing KME Engines and Tillered Aerial Ladder Quints for more then 15 years. Now as of the last few years the Los Angeles City Fire Department has also been ordering KME Engines and Boston has recently been ordering both KME Engines and Trucks.
In the mid 2000’s San Diego had ordered several KME Engines and a few other vehicles however they were not happy with them and they ordering Pierce Engines and Trucks once again and are reassigning and phasing out their several KME Engines.
To be fair I have also heard that KME products have improved somewhat and that compared to other manufacturers they haven’t been delivering “lemons” as much either. For New York City to order KME Engines is still a big deal as until recently they mainly had been ordering Seagrave Engines with some Ferrara Engines Trucks and Rescue companies as well.
#15 by FFEMT on November 21, 2013 - 10:34 PM
A few years back at one of the Fire Musters at Quinn there was a FDNY engine and I asked the same question. The guy there said it was because in the past they had had people tracking their apparatus as they were driven to delivery and it actually became a bit of a problem, multiple cars piling up along side it trying to take pictures and following it, etc. At least with this system a “trained” observer has to spot it, not just any uninformed member of the public.
#16 by Josh Boyajian on November 21, 2013 - 8:30 PM
Why does the FDNY want the numbers and logos covered? Nice rig though
#17 by ffpm571 on November 21, 2013 - 7:42 PM
Ohhh.. Better cover up the name and any way of telling who’s department it might be.. Not like anyone cant tell its FDNY