From Chris Wagner:
Article about discussion of adding a Snorkel in Hinsdale to replace the current truck. Also a suggestion that the apparatus would be reduced from 5 to 4.
Excerpts from the Hinsdalean:
Hinsdale officials are planning to streamline the fire department’s fleet — and save some money in the process.
At Tuesday’s village board meeting, trustees signaled their support for acquiring a Snorkel fire truck to take the place of both the existing engine and ladder truck.
Interim Fire Chief Jeffrey Pindelski, who was hired in May, told trustees that he was asked to evaluate the department’s operations when he came on board.
The $1.7-million truck has the same footprint and maneuverability as an engine that has a 55-foot articulating boom with a basket on the end.
He acknowledged that it is not ideal for every community but said it’s a perfect fit for Hinsdale.
The village president said new EPA rules governing diesel vehicles soon will take affect, resulting in a higher cost for the new truck. Acquiring it would allow the village to sell its ladder truck immediately and not replace it in 2029 for $2 million as had been scheduled. Neither would the current engine be replaced in 2030 for an estimated $900,000.
The new truck would not be delivered until 2026 per the manufacturing timeline, and the village would not need to pay until then. Pindelski said that not having a ladder truck during the interim wouldn’t compromise department services because neighboring communities would assist.
Trustees are expected to vote on the purchase at their Sept. 17 meeting, as the deadline to place an order is Sept. 20 to avoid a price increase.
Excerpts from patch.com:
A couple of years ago, Clarendon Hills considered not replacing its old ladder fire truck, but residents and firefighters argued against such a move, with signs popping up around town. They said a ladder truck was important for public safety. The village decided to buy a truck.
Hinsdale, however, is going in a different direction.
At Tuesday’s village board meeting, trustees generally agreed with the fire chief’s plan to do away with the ladder truck and replace it with a more maneuverable truck known as a snorkel.
Chief Jeffrey Pindelski was asked why other departments were getting ladder trucks, rather than snorkels.
If Hinsdale ever needed a ladder truck, it could ask for help from neighboring towns, officials said.
If the village puts the order in soon, it will get the new truck in 2026. It would be part of an overall plan that would mean one fewer fire vehicle in the village’s fleet, bringing the total to four. That would mean millions in savings over the years, officials said.
The village needs to order the $1.7 million truck soon to save money before new EPA mandates are issued, increasing the cost.
Hinsdale’s discussion took about 10 minutes. By contrast, Clarendon Hills officials mulled their options for months. At the end of Tuesday’s discussion, the village manager said no money would need to be spent until 2026. He was ready to go forward with ordering the new truck.
thanks Scott
#1 by FPM157 on September 10, 2024 - 3:26 PM
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Here is my question, while everyone has their opinion, comment and thoughts but does anyone here have actual knowledge of the reasoning why they want a snorkel? Every town, city and fire district has its unique challenges as far as buildings, set backs and types of buildings. With past knowledge of the reasoning why they bought the current T84 and why it is so unique being a Rosenbauer/Metz Aerial, I don’t completely disagree with this purchase of a snorkel or snorkel type apparatus. That current T84 was designed to be small and maneuverable and light enough to safely drive down the numerous long driveways next to very large homes/mansions that are common throughout their coverage area. This now alleviates some of the set back issues and allows them to have an elevated work platform and an elevated master stream. The purchase of a snorkel while not ideal for taller buildings will essentially accomplish the mission that they were looking for when the Metz Aerial was purchased. This purchase would also help diversify the apparatus in the area instead of purchasing the same 3 types of aerial devices seen in all the surrounding towns. That being said it does have niche operational capacity but that being said it is another tool in the toolbox for Hinsdale and the surrounding communities instead of just purchasing another truck. That’s just my two cents on this discussion.
#2 by Jim on September 10, 2024 - 2:18 PM
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Big Moe,
You raise excellent points. Many suburban chiefs admire Chicago, which is fine until it starts influencing their apparatus specifications. Instead, they should focus on what works best for their own areas. If streets are narrow, features like overhead ladder racks on engines and H-style outriggers on tower ladders don’t make sense. Outside of a few specific areas, snorkels aren’t practical, and funds would be better spent on a mid-mount tower, but only if the department has the necessary staffing. It’s encouraging to see the fire service shift back to smaller engines with better-turning radii and lower hose beds, prioritizing maneuverability and ease of leading out instead of overloading it with equipment that they will never use and didn’t need in the first place. I feel that rushing to buy this snorkel will be in the same category as the latter.
#3 by Jim on September 10, 2024 - 2:04 PM
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Michael M,
The goal of sharing staffing and apparatus is to streamline operations, eliminate duplicate efforts, and provide better service than either can offer individually. Would an ambulance be needed at the Clarendon Hills station? Possibly, but how does that work currently when they can’t staff one due to staffing limitations, as mentioned here? If the plan is to utilize the apparatus as outlined, the costs would be shared between both towns, reducing expenses and allowing those savings to be reallocated to staffing and other needs. You raise an excellent point about Oak Brook, which faces a similar situation and would benefit from such an arrangement.
#4 by Chuck on September 10, 2024 - 10:57 AM
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This idea that “I’ll just get a truck from the next town over, so I don’t need to have one,” is a horrible fallacy. Does every town need one of everything in its firehouse? No, definitely not. But maybe if Chiefs ordered apparatus based on actual day to day working needs instead of trying to out cool the next town over with a prettier truck, this nonsense wouldn’t be going on. Same for manning. Showing up in a 2 million dollar rig with 2 guys doesn’t put fires out. How the hell do you run a RIT team with a 2 man company? Or do you tie up 2 companies to do RIT?
#5 by Big Moe on September 9, 2024 - 6:46 PM
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I’ m not sure the 55′ Snorkel is a great idea anywhere but Chicago. One doesn’t have to take off both shoes to count all of them nation wide. If its so great for a residential town of McMansions and setbacks why aren’t they all over the place?
Time will tell in Romeoville, Evergreen Park,etc. on how useful they are or how much fire duty they get to operate at.
#6 by Mike C on September 9, 2024 - 5:47 PM
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So will Hinsdale buy a real Snorkel or get the Rosenbauer version? I’ve been hearing some chatter that the Chicago Rosenbauers are complete trash. Crystal Lake…same thing.
Either way, I don’t mean to Monday morning quarterback, but is the Snorkel a true need or a want? There is such limited need for this style rig. I would think they would just be better off with a rescue engine and lean on other departments for a truck.
I’m a big fan for the E-One HR100. This would work fantastic for Hinsdale!
#7 by Harry on September 9, 2024 - 3:55 PM
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Mike m western springs truck was rehabbed back a few years ago and I bet it does not even have 50,000 miles on it yes it is 31 yo but no need to replace
#8 by Martin on September 9, 2024 - 3:43 PM
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What if Hinsdale, Clarendon Hills, and Western springs became a fire district?
#9 by Michael m on September 9, 2024 - 2:00 PM
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Looking at a map, that would work if there was a combined Clardon Hills/Hinsdale staton on Chestnut. Westmont would have to agree to cover the west side of Clardon Hills. Western Springs would have to get a new truck. Current truck is a 93. They would have to agree to cover Hinsdale east side.
Oak Brook would have to consolidate into Station 93 on Spring, they could respond to the north side of Hinsdale and or Clardon Hills.
If they did this, Hinsdale would not have to worry about new rigs for the next 20 years since Clardon hills just got a new engine 86 and ladder 86 is in production.
What they would have to do is most likely keep medic 86 at the current Clardon Hills station just because of RTE 83 and the tracks. I don’t think that would be a problem if those two communities shared fire apparatus. I still think Clardon Hills would have to keep 86 as a medic only station.
It would have to be a pretty big station. It would have to fit 4 apparatus from Hinsdale, 3 apparatus from Clardon Hills. Clarion Hills rigs would be the first out rigs that are manned. Hinsdale rigs would be reserves. This way each community would have up to date apparatus.
#10 by Jim on September 9, 2024 - 12:28 PM
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Michael M.,
I agree with your point about including Oak Brook in the discussion. They, like Hinsdale and Clarendon Hills, are facing the same challenge: how to staff their apparatus and what to staff. This growing trend isn’t likely to stop. As recruitment becomes more difficult, communities will be forced to increase pay and benefits for both new hires and current employees, further straining financial resources. To address this, alternative staffing models, including shared staffing, should be considered. This would ensure that apparatus are properly staffed and capable of performing the necessary tasks during incidents.
Without using GIS, it seems the best location for a shared station would be west of the current one, possibly along Chestnut near the tracks. While Route 83 and the railroad tracks present obstacles, intergovernmental agreements with nearby municipalities like Westmont and Western Springs could help ensure that response teams can reach incidents from alternative directions.
#11 by Michael m on September 9, 2024 - 11:43 AM
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I agree, these two relatively small communities should share resources. Oak Brook should also be thrown into the mix with them.
Where do you think a centrally located station should go if it were to serve both communities. You mentioned Rte 83 as an issue? How do you think this would be best overcome?
#12 by Jim on September 9, 2024 - 10:01 AM
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The long-standing practice of fire chiefs purchasing unnecessary or impractical apparatus continues. Both Clarendon Hills and Hinsdale are currently facing challenges in maintaining their fleets, particularly in determining which apparatus each needs and how, or if, the apparatus will be staffed. These communities would benefit from sharing resources to ensure proper staffing of essential equipment. Maintaining an aerial apparatus in each small community is a costly and poor use of taxpayer dollars, especially since neither can staff them adequately. A better solution would be to properly staff an engine, truck, and ambulance in a centrally located station to serve both communities. While there are infrastructure concerns with Rt. 83, these can be addressed, and doing so would improve the level of service for both areas.
#13 by Wayne on September 8, 2024 - 10:41 PM
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How many of those trucks have dedicated staffing, and how many are in houses with dedicated engines staffed as well?
#14 by E. C. Darroll on September 8, 2024 - 10:09 PM
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Not sure if it still stands…but for a very long time Hinsdale actually staffed three on their medic. So it might be one more than that, but again I haven’t known if that’s the case in the last couple of years.
#15 by Daniel on September 8, 2024 - 6:48 PM
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They do staff Medic 84 as well.
I’m not 100% sure, but from what I can tell, their staffing is as follows:
Engine 84: 1 LT & 1 FF
Tower 84: 1 LT & 2 FF
Medic 84: 2 FF
Medic 85 is cross staffed by the tower when M84 is out. Utility 84 is also used to chase the medic for lower acuity EMS calls, not sure where the person for that comes from. The officer on the tower is also the shift commander.
#16 by Michael m on September 8, 2024 - 5:43 PM
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Ok if they staff the engine and tower, who staffs Medic 84?
#17 by Daniel on September 8, 2024 - 10:48 AM
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Mike M an even worse case scenario happened last July with York Centers 4th alarm.
Out of the 17 truck companies on scene, 13 of them were from DuPage. With 5 of the counties trucks OOS or other wise unavailable, that left only 8 trucks for the entire county (Elmhurst 1, Naperville 7 & 10, Warrenville 11 (POC staffed), Hanover Park 15 (cross staffed), Roselle 64, Itasca 66, and Bensenville 107). To my knowledge, there were no COQ truck companies on the 4th alarm.
#18 by Mike Hellmuth on September 8, 2024 - 10:30 AM
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I looked on the sutphen web site and they have an SP70 demo in stock and available now…..
#19 by Michael M on September 8, 2024 - 10:28 AM
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Forgot about Roselle, DuPage has 25 trucks within the county and 3 just outside of the county.
#20 by Mike Hellmuth on September 8, 2024 - 10:26 AM
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I agree I think a sutphen SP 70 would be a better choice check out the Sutphen web site to see the photos and specs…..
#21 by Michael m on September 8, 2024 - 10:18 AM
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Why do these departments want to reduce the number of apparatus? Is it due to cost?
DuPage County departments that have trucks as of now include
1.) Addison
2.)Bensenville
3.) Bloomingdale
4.) Carol Stream
5.) Clardon Hills
6 Downers Grove
7.) Elmhurst (2)
8.) Glen Ellyn (2)
9.)Hinsdale
10.)Itasca
11.)Lombard
12.) Naperville 1in DuPage 1 in Will
13.) Oak Brook
14. Oak Brook Terrace
15. West Chicago
16.) Wheaton
17. Warrenville
18.) Westmont
19.) Woodridge
20.) Tri state
24 trucks in DuPage county proper with Hanover Park, Bartlett and Naperville have trucks just outside DuPage county lines. Bloomingdale’s and Itasca trucks are OOS a lot.
DuPage is well covered with trucks, but there is always the what if scenario. Didn’t West Chicago have a fire recently that 10 of DuPage County’s trucks responded to? What if something like that happens again?
#22 by Daniel on September 8, 2024 - 10:04 AM
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Hinsdale currently has 2 engines, the tower, and 2 medics.
I would be curious if this is replacing both the frontline engine and the tower. If I recall correctly, they have a Pierce engine on order as well. I’m not sure of their exact staffing, but they do normally staff both the engine and the tower, so combining the two would leave them with some extra manpower, unless they plan to downsize.
In term of auto/mutual aid, Clarendon Hills, Tri-State, Oak Brook, Pleasantview, Westmont, and Western Springs all have trucks within 4 miles of Hinsdale. Clarendon Hills, unless they’ve changed, runs the ladder first out on pretty much everything so waiting for callback staffing for it isn’t an issue.
#23 by Michael m on September 8, 2024 - 9:43 AM
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So it sounds like they are getting rid of engine 85. The current engine 84 which is a 2014, would become engine 85. The snorkel would take the place of engine and truck 84.
God forbid if they ever had a fire at Hinsdale Hospital. A truck like this would not work if they had to rescue people from the upper floors of Hinsdale Hospital. Heck it would not even reach the roof of part of the hospital. Right now their current truck could reach the roof of the hospital.
What is their current fleet? Two engines the truck and I am guessing two ambulances?
They probably would be better of with an Ascendent 110 wannabe ComEd truck. At least the wannabe ComEd truck could reach the roof of Hinsdale Hospital.
Glad Clardon Hills is replacing truck 86. I have a feeling it is going to be running auto aid into Hinsdale if there is a fire at the hospital. I am also glad Westmont has a new tower. That too would have to run auto aid to Hinsdale for a fire at the hospital.
#24 by Martin on September 8, 2024 - 9:19 AM
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Chicago, evergreen park and soon Romeoville have something similar to the snorkel by rosenbauer. Having worked in Hinsdale for years on these houses getting built and remodeled, I could see where they could use this type of apparatus granting that they could get close enough. some houses are closer to the street and others are a bit set back. I haven’t stopped by the fire station in years so I am uncertain how much space they have. If not mistaken, their current truck replaced a regular rear mount tower. With that being something that may be “too big” I would say that it would be better for Hinsdale to get a quint if they are trying to replace an engine and their tower.
#25 by Big Moe on September 8, 2024 - 8:18 AM
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Snorkels have very limited reach both vertically and horizontally. Only 27 feet horizontal reach and that at 50% elevation, where the reach diminishes with further lowering or elevation of the bucket. Maximum vertical reach of 55 feet is only reached when the booms are straight up and the bucket is nearly over the turntable. It may be useful as a master stream appliance for the once a decade commercial fire downtown where setbacks are very shallow, but getting to the roof of a house fire will be portable ladders or nothing. Mutual aid trucks will be blocked out by earlier arriving units. Yes, Chicago uses them for fires but the streams they apply could just as easily be applied by ladder pipes or tower buckets and Chicago has miles of shallow set backs and large fires. It will be interesting to see how much actual fire use Romeoville and Hinsdale Snorkels get. Philadelphia has replaced all theirs with Aerialscope towers. Frankfort…Very rare uses any more in the fire service and little practical application. Historically cool, operationally irrelevant. Might be better off with a Sutphen SP70 or Rosenbauer 75′ MM tower on single rear axle. Nearby towns are Paid on call or far off.