This from Keith Grzadziel:
Photos from Minnesota State Fire Department Association Facebook page of possibly 1 set of Chicago squads.
From the Minnesota State Fire Department Association Facebook page
Chicago FD squad by Rosenbauer America
Chicago orders new squads (more)
Pingback: Chicago orders new squads (more) | chicagoareafire.com
#1 by Mike Mc on October 7, 2016 - 12:42 PM
Bill: My comparison was with the modern FDNY squad companies, not the old ones. I always thought Comm. Quinn came up with the snorkel squad idea after the 1961 Hubbard St. fire. Fireground photos show a civil defense rescue truck that was basically field stripped. He realized he needed state of the art rescue gear and yes, the CD rigs were carrying better equipment! The snorkel was the other big motivator. I was told he wanted 7 snorkel squads, one for each division, and to put the original 13 squads out of service. The cost of the snorkels and the equipment kept him from fulfilling his goal. Even without the snorkel, I think he would have created two or three heavy rescue companies very similar to New York. In hindsight, that would have been a better way to go and a Rescue 1, 2, and 3 may have become a permanent feature in Chicago.
I don’t know the source of the axe quote but air masks, radios, paramedics, and more were forced on the CFD by outside pressure when the commissioners had no interest in such “new fangled and temporary fad items”. Commissioners long past retirement age (Corrigan and Quinn) often failed to keep up with the times.
#2 by Chuck on October 8, 2016 - 6:47 PM
Mike, I find your comment about things like paramedics being “forced” on the fire service offensive. If it weren’t for that, most fire departments around the the U.S. would be shells of themselves, Chicago included. Who needs all the fire companies if fire duty is down 80% from 40 years ago? EMS is here to stay, whether the dinosaurs and fans want it or not. History is great, and it’s fun to look at cool old pictures and bitch about blue lights on fire trucks, but there are bigger issues to be concerned about.
#3 by David on October 7, 2016 - 11:23 AM
Bill and Mike, thanks a lot for all the historical info. Talking about the equipment the CFD Squads and FDNY Rescues used back in the 50s and 60s I had to remember on a comment made by some CFD captain back in those days which I saw somewhere on the web: “The boys in New York have their power saws… …but our men use Kelly axes, they always start!”.
#4 by Bill Post on October 6, 2016 - 1:47 PM
David that is a very good question. Back in the days from 1962 through the mid 1970’s, before the Scuba Team (687) was given a Step Van, both the Snorkel squads and the scuba team would respond. You might know that the Scuba pickup truck would usually have a boat trailer that they would tow as well. As far as when or where they would don their scuba gear, while I really don’t know, I would guess that they might have done it in the rear crew cab of the pickup or perhaps they could have geared up before responding since the Snorkel squads would respond immediately. One of the great things about the original Snorkel Squad 2 is that they were located at Engine 60’s current house less then a mile from the lakefront and South Lake Shore Drive. Snorkel Squad 1 was also a little less then a mile from the lakefront. You might also know that 687 was quartered at the jet boat headquarters at the Jackson Park Coast Guard Station which was a little north of 67th Street and Lake Shore Drive.
There is also another unit that would respond to water based incidents after going in service in 1965. The first Bell Helicopter (441) had large pontoons so that if necessary they could land directly on the water. They were usually based out of Meigs Field even though in the early days they would go to Midway Airport overnight. They would be at Meigs during the day and most of the time they were there around the clock after the new fire station was built which included a hangar in 1973.
It’s funny that you should ask about the Autocar squads as just like Mike Mc had said they weren’t equipped for scuba incidents. Their famous double door crew cabs would have been the ideal place to put on scuba gear.
Before Snorkel Squad 1 was put in service on October 1st 1962, Chicago squad companies were the equivalent to being a heavy rescue company. The only problem is that Chicago’s squads (as sharp looking as they were) weren’t up to date, and they were still using much of the same gear that they had been using in the 1930’s and perhaps part of the 1940’s. While they did carry some self contained breathing apparatus, the breathers that they were using were a couple of Mc Caa Masks. While they had some air tanks, they were strapped to a firefighters chest which was by that time ancient technology. Their cutting tools consisted of hand saws and cutting torches. If they wanted to used an electric power saw or drill they would either have to call for one of new light wagons or they could request the Civil Defense who carried some power tools on their rescue trucks. The irony is that the Civil Defense was made of volunteers and they had some equipment that the squads didn’t carry.
Just like Mike had mentioned, New York City’s rescue companies had a much larger inventory of up to date equipment then Chicago’s squads.
When the Snorkel squads were put in service, Chicago was in effect playing catch up to New York City. Chicago’s Snorkel squads also had power tools, acid suits, asbestos suits, multi-versals, scuba gear, foam, different types of chemical fire extinguishers and yes up to date SCBAs which were worn on your back instead of your chest.
When Chicago’s Snorkel squads were put in service they were the only rigs in the city that had up to date air masks. They were mainly using MSAs but might have also used some Scotts as well.
In New York City, the equivalent to Chicago’s squads are their rescue companies. At the time New York ran with four or five rescues, the first of which went in service around 1915.
The squad company in New York was a relatively new type of unit that was only put in service from 1955 through 1959.
New York temporarily ran with two or three squads during World War 1 and then again in World War 2 because many of New York City’s firefighters were overseas. When the wars ended, the squads were taken out of service. The squads that were put in service during the 1950’s were strictly manpower units and they were in the busier areas of Manhattan, the Bronx, and Brooklyn. Unlike Chicago all reports of a structure fire would be dispatched a full box alarm assignment which consisted of three engines and two trucks plus a squad if one was nearby. The NYC squads weren’t comparable to Chicago’s Flying Manpower Squads because the engines and trucks ran with six and seven men and the squads ran with them. Chicago’s Flying Squads were put in service to respond with the undermanned four man engines and trucks which were in the slower districts. Five man companies in Chicago were located downtown and in the busier districts, and as a rule they didn’t have a Flying Manpower Squad dispatched with them.
The busier districts in New York which did have squads got many working fires so the reason for the squads was to assist the fully manned engines and trucks in order to help alleviate the need to call for extra alarms. If they did call for extra alarms in the squads might be released to help cover the district because of the high incidents of fire.
Mike I wouldn’t even compare New York’s early squads to Chicago’s because the New York squads weren’t equipped as rescue squads and Chicago’s were even though they really weren’t up to date until the Snorkel Squads were put in service in the 1950s and 1960’s.
Mike have you ever wondered if it wasn’t for the Snorkel would Commissioner Quinn have put an up to date heavy rescue squad in service? The Snorkel is what seemed to give Commissioner Quinn the impetus to create the Snorkel squad which really gave Chicago an up to date state of the art heavy rescue. While both New York City and Los Angeles were running with SCBAs on engines and trucks by the 1960s, only the Snorkel squads in Chicago and years later the Flying Squads ran with them. Chicago’s engines and trucks didn’t start getting SCBAs until well into the mid to late 70’s and 80’s
#5 by Mike Mc on October 6, 2016 - 9:04 AM
Bill: Lou Galante was a lieutenant on SS-1. He transferred from Squad 2 and replaced Michael Wernicke (guessing at spelling), who wanted to go back to Squad 2. Wernicke replaced John McCone, who was really there for Bill Quinn’s outside activities and not for the fire duty. Galante was detailed there for years before the transfer orders officially assigned him. Red Windle was the captain and Ado Warren was the other lieutenant.
David: The Autocar squads did not have divers or diving gear. They carried some rescue equipment but it was nothing like what FDNY’s rescues carried during that era. They were more like an FDNY squad, but without the engine. The snorkel squads carried what was then state of the art equipment.
Don’t know if the scuba unit and the SS’s would respond individually or on the same incident. My guess is a little of each. The scuba unit was mostly made up of detailed snorkel squad members and they would also man the jet boats. The scuba unit would also do recoveries because there was no police equivalent back then. The scuba unit saw a lot more dive incidents than the squads because they were at the lake front and also plane crashes off Meigs field were, although not frequent, not at all unusual.
#6 by David on October 6, 2016 - 3:23 AM
Bill and Mike Mc: I know that it’s a bit off-topic here but talking about donning the scuba gear while riding to the incidents – I’m just wondering how did they do it on the Autocar rigs before the Snorkel Squads were put in service?
Also there was the Scuba unit by the mid 60s with the small Chevy or GMC pickup, so did both the new unit and Snkl Squads respond or the SS left the job to the Scuba unit by then?
#7 by Bill Post on October 6, 2016 - 1:26 AM
That’s interesting Mike Mc. I do remember that a few years after going in service I did notice a black awning that was installed on the body just behind the cabs of the International Harvester Snorkel squads. I just thought they were built to protect and shield some additional equipment that was placed on the rig. You’re correct that to look at them you would have no idea they were crew cabs. Being built on top of the body behind the cab, I always thought the complete body of the rig just had cabinets to store equipment. What was Louis Galante’s title at the time? I do know that at one time he was assigned to Squad Company 2. It sounds to me like he might have been one of the crew on the Snorkel squad since you were saying that he had to convince Red Windle to have the cabs built so the crews could put on their scuba gear while enroute to the scene. It’s too bad that Chicago didn’t run with any box-style squads in those days as that way they wouldn’t have had to install the make shift crew cab.
I’m sure you know that New York City had been running with large box-style rescue companies for years. Everyone rode inside so they never had to worry about making space to don their scuba gear.
#8 by Mike Mc on October 5, 2016 - 3:50 PM
Bill, Snorkel Squads 1 and 2 had crew cabs built by the shops located directly behind the cab. They had to climb up the rear of the rig to reach them. The crew cabs had no side doors and you would not know they were there to look at photos of the rigs. They were installed so that they could don scuba gear while in route. They also had their own small space heaters. The crew cabs were Lou Galante’s idea. He convinced Captain Red Windle to have them made with the scuba gear being what sold the deal.
SS-3 had a box like crew cab installed near the rear of the rig. Do not know if they used a back step.
SS-1 and SS-2 also rode on the back step between the snorkel basket when the weather was nice or when they wanted to. Same for the 1967 Mack SS-1. The back steps of the fog pressure (1A, 2A, 3A) were also used of course.
#9 by Bill Post on October 5, 2016 - 3:32 PM
Fred most of the information that I have on the new squads is from this site. Since the squad rig runs as the front piece, the crew cab on the Snorkel apparently meets their needs. Back in the day when the original Snorkel squads ran with fog pressure units as their second piece, they normally ran seven-man companies because they were required to have an engineer. That’s when the Snorkel was the front piece. There were no crew cabs so the some of the members had to ride on a rear running board of the Snorkel or the fog pressure. Since the Snorkel basket has a rear overhang, one man would have to ride to left of the basket and another to the right on the rear of the International Harvester Snorkels that were assigned to Snorkel Squads 1 and 2. Another firefighter would ride on the rear of the fog pressure.
I’m not sure how they did it on Snorkel Squad 3 which was the original GMC/Pitman. As far as I know they never put running boards on the rear of that rig.
#10 by 9 man squad on October 4, 2016 - 10:41 PM
I don’t mind the bright chevrons on the Snorkle just not the dark ones on the box
#11 by Fred M on October 4, 2016 - 8:33 PM
Bill P – the new Snorkel rig looks like it does not have a crew cab. Did the City try to get that back into the spec’s?
#12 by Mike on October 4, 2016 - 9:05 PM
If I remember right the cab on the snorkel caused one of many hold ups. It was first spec’d with a 4 door and then turned into a 2 door with a cabinet. The snorkel usually only has 2 of the 6 members assigned to it.
#13 by Daniel Hynd on October 4, 2016 - 9:50 PM
Fred,
The reason there is no crew cab is because the snorkel squads rarely (if ever) run with more than 2 people, so they opted out on the crew cabs and put compartments instead, since they always store extra gear in the back of the crew cab.
#14 by David on October 4, 2016 - 5:45 PM
Still somehow cannot get used on the reflective chevrons on the bumpers and also the missing 888s, quite a shame there aren’t the old shops any more to sort this kind of stuff out…
#15 by Brian on October 4, 2016 - 11:37 AM
Anyone hear what will happen with the current Snorkel pieces when the new rigs arrive? It would make sense to have some sent out for refurb or do on a rotating basis as you will need spares but then again that makes sense.
#16 by Bill Post on October 4, 2016 - 1:45 AM
9 man squad, I assume that you know that after the original Snorkel Squad 1 was taken out of service in October of 1980 the Hendrickson/Pierce Snorkel went on to become Snorkel Company 4. In 1982 it was renumbered Snorkel 5. After the current three Snorkel squads were created on September 19, 1983, it served as a reserve Snorkel. In 1986 it ran as Squad 1 before the Spartan E-One was delivered, and then served a year as Squad 5. Squad 5’s 1988 Spartan E-One was totaled so the Hendrickson/Pierce became Squad 5 again until around 1996/97 when Squad 5 received Squad 1’s 1987 Spartan E-One Snorkel as a hand me down rig. That rig almost had 9 lives as it served for the original Snorkel Squad 1, then as an ordinary Snorkel company, as a reserve Snorkel, and then as Snorkel Squad 5 for at least 6 years .
#17 by Bill Post on October 4, 2016 - 1:09 AM
9 man squad the CFD only had one Hendrickson/Pierce Snorkel squad. The second piece was a Ford/Pierce walk-around squad with a small crew cab at the front of body. They were both ordered separately and the Ford/Pierce ran for about a year before the Hendrickson/Snorkel was delivered. The Ford/Pierce was purchased to replace a fog pressure unit that was running as SS 1A when the first piece was a 1967 Mack/Pierce. When the Hendrickson/Pierce was purchased around 1975, Chicago was only running one Snorkel squad company. Chicago had three Snorkel Squads, but SS 2 and SS 3 were taken out of service by May of 1969. Both were still two-piece companies, but neither was running with a Snorkel. The second piece was usually a spare pumper or high pressure wagon. Snorkel Squad 3 at first ran with a spare mini-booster pumper or a spare fog pressure unit. Around December of 1968, Snorkel Squads 2 and 3 were officially redesignated at Rescues 2 and 3. SS 2 stopped running with their Snorkel around mid 1968 while SS 3 had their Snorkel until January 1967 when it was incapacitated during the blizzard of 1967. So SS 3 was running for almost two years without a Snorkel before being redesignated as a rescue company.
#18 by Brian on October 3, 2016 - 11:34 PM
I missed the compartment in the bumper. See it now
#19 by John Antkowski on October 3, 2016 - 7:02 PM
The bumpers are different because it looks like there’s a wintch on the one without the snorkel. You are right the reflective chevrons are wrong and very lame looking. Why not keep them the same as other rigs. John
#20 by 9 man squad on October 3, 2016 - 7:02 PM
I think the big front bumper is for a high rise/ leader line hose.
http://chicagoareafire.com/blog/2013/04/chicago-still-alarm-fire-cfd-fire-trucks/.
Or to hold the winch and hydraulic hose for jaws of life. But if I recal right all apparatus(truck and squad) now run battery powered jaws so probably a hose or winch. https://fireman5650.smugmug.com/ChicagoFireApparatus/Chicago-Fire-Department-Squad/i-wV56S8Z
A bit off topic but how many Hendrickson Snorkle squad did the department run?
#21 by Rusty on October 3, 2016 - 6:39 PM
My question would be not only are the bumpers different then the current Chicago vehicles. But the Chevrons are different colors. One is the lime yellow/ red 3M Tape and the other is the 3m Amber/Red.
Maybe Rosenbauer screwed up. They have been known to be brutal when it comes to following the specifications. Ask anyone thats ordered one.
#22 by Brian on October 3, 2016 - 4:30 PM
What goes on the large front bumpers for the squads?
#23 by CHRISTOPHER ORMSBY on October 3, 2016 - 6:06 PM
A length of trash line is normally on the front of the snorkel
#24 by CrabbyMilton on October 3, 2016 - 3:01 PM
No mistaken a ROSENBAUER COMMANDER. Very nice.
#25 by Michael M on October 3, 2016 - 2:21 PM
The first set of new squads looks really sharp! It will be interesting to see how they ultimately perform especially the snorkels. Hopefully the squads will work out well. I would imagine all four sets will be delivered at the same time.
#26 by Mike L on October 3, 2016 - 1:57 PM
The rig on the left in the pic is not a Chicago rig. Just happened to photo bomb the squad pieces.
#27 by David on October 3, 2016 - 11:21 AM
The striped bumpers look really weird on CFD rigs, I think the standard white stripe would be a better choice, but I can imagine that they probably wanted something more visible as the bumpers are really huge.
Can’t wait to see a proper shot of the rigs marked and ready for service.
#28 by John on October 3, 2016 - 10:31 AM
Those look really modern and sleek… But if that is supposed to be a set why are the bumpers different?