This from Steve Redick:
I was doing some scanning from the “wayback” files and found a few you might like to see…The first was a huge pile of RR ties in Bensenville that burned for hours and hours..early 80s. Got some rig shots including the old Bensenville International Squad rig..I remember at this fire the oxygen levels near it got low and one fireman started acting very erratically til they got him into better atmosphere..very strange but no one thought of using masks at an outside fire back then.
I got a lot of interest in the Elk Grove tiller shot too…..
Found a coupla shots of some Mt Prospect rigs, and the Wood Dale truck
Also a fire in a trailer in Morton Grove at the old OCC site (Oakton Community College)
All these should be from the early 80s and shot on Kodacolor negative film…
Steve
Bensenville engine. Steve Redick photo
Railroad ties on fire in the 1980s. Steve Redick photo
Wood Dale Pirsch ladder truck. Steve Redick photo
Railroad ties on fire in the 1980s. Steve Redick photo
Bensenville squad. Steve Redick photo
Elmhurst Mack CF engine. Steve Redick photo
Another shot of the Elmhurst engine. Steve Redick photo
Leyden Township Hendrickson/FMC engine. Steve Redick photo
Elk Grove Village Pirsch TDA. Steve Redick photo
Mount Prospect American LaFrance engine. Steve Redick photo
Mount Prospect American LaFrance engine. Steve Redick photo
Mount Prospect squad 543. Steve Redick photo
Morton Grove engine with burned out trailer. Steve Redick photo
#1 by James Emerson on February 6, 2014 - 6:50 PM
Steve,
The engineer at the back of the Leyden Fire Dept Engine was my dad (same name). Any chance I could get a copy of that photo or any others you have of Leyden emailed to me. My dad just recently passed and we are setting up a room in his home for all his FD stuff.
Thanks in advance.
#2 by Bill Post on November 1, 2013 - 1:27 PM
Mike Mc I remember that Truck 59 (using the Magirus Ladder) was special called to the 5-11 and 5 special alarm fire at the Levey Division of City service fire in May of 1973. I don’t know if they were using it for their Aerial Pipe capabilities or not. I also remember seeing one of Milwaukee Mack Magirus Ladders that had been running as Ladder 8 as recent as 1979.
Milwaukee Ladder 8 had been running out of Engine 17 at the time however since then they were relocated further south to Engine 14 ,I believer to make room for one their Med units. Of course the Magirus is long gone however I found it a curiousity that they should be running with an open cab rig.
I remember that at the Levey Division Fire on west 42nd street (which was an easy walk from Engine 34 and Truck 54 house). Snorkel 3 was already using their new (at the time) 1972 model Oshkosh/Pierce 75 foot Snorkel.
There was some damage done to the Snorkel so in about a year three identical Snorkels of the same model as the Snorkel 3’s new Snorkel were delivered with one of them going to Snorkel 3 and the other two going to Snorkels 4 and 5. Snorkel 3″s 1972 model had become a reserve Snorkel at Engine 11 and Truck 9. When Engine 112’s new station was opened in March of 1979 Snorkel 6 was moved from Engine 110’s house and they were given the 1972 Snorkel. Snorkel 6 had been using a Ford Pierce 1971 55 foot Snorkel which became a spare rig.
The 1971 Ford Pierce was originally assigned to Snorkel 3 at Engine 60 in 1971. That Snorkel was a big let down for me when it was first purchased as it was such a puny sized rig. It ended up replacing one of the 1961 model 85 foot High Ranger Snorkels that had been reassigned to Snorkel 3 after Snorkel 4 had received their 1966 International Pierce.
Mike did you know that in the CFD’s 1959 Annual Report there had been a speculative commentary written by the late Fire Commissioner Quinn or someone from the Commissioners office about the City adding more 144 foot Ladders and Snorkels of course. Well he was right about adding the Snorkels however as you know that was the last of the 144 foot purchases.
Commissioner Quinn’s quest for High Aerials didn’t totally end however as Chicago did purchase the Hendrickson/Pierce/Morita Lift 135 foot Elevator Ladder under his watch.
#3 by Mike Mc on November 1, 2013 - 10:38 AM
Bill: I am trying to contact a couple of retired chiefs in the hope that they could provide specifics as to exactly what ground ladders the Magirus’s carried and did not carry. If memory serves, Truck 45 carried two ground ladders, one each in a compartment above the wheel wells. I do not know if they rig came this way or if it was a shop configuration. Truck 39, for at least a time, had ground ladders mounted to the sides of the main aerial.
In addtion to New York; Philadelphia, Milwaukee, and Green Bay also had Magirus trucks. Green Bay had a 144′ rig. Milwaukee had four 100’s. Three with Mack open cabs and a later one with a FWD sedan cab.
The Magirus trucks were never very poplular in Chicago. I was told that when they first came out, chiefs would pull a still and box for a working fire if the still truck was a Magirus. I was also told that when Truck 3 first got their Magirus, one of the 3rd Battalion Chiefs, quartered with Truck 3, complained about the rig with such vigor that Quinn had him transferred as a form of punishment. I have also been told that there were lenghty periods of time when some of the aerials were not operational and the rigs were kept in service anyway. “Bolted down” is the phrase that was used.
You are correct that Truck 30’s Magirus allowed Engine 51 to be moved to their quarters. The rigs were parked in tandem in the old firehouse on State Street. If Truck 30 ever went out of service, they would have to change rigs with Truck 10, the only other 100′ Magirus. Truck 10 would then use a reserve tiller.
If you listen to the radio transimissions of the 1967 McCormick Place fire, after the 5-11 was pulled, they ask for “all the remaining Magirus’s” or words to that affect. It took me many years to figure out what they were asking for. The Magirus rigs had metal aerials so they could be utilized as an aerial pipe.
Truck 59 (old Truck 30) was the only one to not have Mars DX-40 (football) lights and to not have fender mounted Mars 888’s. I never knew why. I do not know if it was because Truck 30 was in an accident or if it was damaged at fire or if they just wanted to save a few bucks.
If there were four men assigned to the truck, two would ride on the back step. If more men were assigned, I believe they would ride with thier backs to the cab, rear end on the deck, with a crude seat belt holding them in.
#4 by FD543 on October 30, 2013 - 10:30 PM
I am glad that I asked my questions, as it started a great conversation here. It all came to my mind a few days ago after seeing Cicero Truck 2 on the street apparently going back to quarters. Then I saw pics of E.G. Village’s old Pirsch here, then videos of FDNY Ladder 20 and LAFD Truck 27 on YouTube, and I had to ask about Chicago. I wish I had more to add to the chat – but I do not. Thanks to all who replied, I learned alot.
#5 by sebastian on October 30, 2013 - 7:24 PM
so can anyone explain the situation in river grove with the pierce engines? I know that 566 was sold. but what happened to the other pierce 565? its been gone a long time now. did they also sell it? confused as to why they would buy an older engine.
#6 by NJ on October 30, 2013 - 8:59 AM
Here is a nice pic of the Magirus ladder trucks
http://yngfire.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5467.0;attach=59754;image
#7 by NJ on October 30, 2013 - 8:43 AM
It’s certainly interesting watching the Ladder and Tower Co’s try and find a way to get the scene on ambo assists on the West Side. Not infrequently, the rig doesn’t get there until the ambo is on scene, has made patient contact and cancels them.
If not tillers, there should certainly be some thought given to getting a FEW smaller ladder trucks for places without very tall buildings and tight narrow streets with parking on both sides.
#8 by Bill Post on October 30, 2013 - 3:24 AM
Mike Mc even though the Mack/Magirus Trucks were really one or two of a kind design (if you differentiate between the 144 and the 100 footers) and that they didn’t appear to have as much equipment space on them as the Trucks that were delivered in the late 1960s ,would you know if there was that significant of a difference in their ground ladder compliment as I do know that they did carry some ground ladders on them?
#9 by Bill Post on October 30, 2013 - 3:11 AM
Sebastian none of the 1990 era Seagraves are frontline however many of them are spare rigs. At least one of them at it’s Aerial Ladder removed and had it’s cabinets and body modified tp become Unit 522 which is also known as the “Lumber Truck” of the Collapse Task Force and is stationed with Engine 14 and Truck 19 who respond with it to Collapses and Maydays and other special duty runs. The Collapse Squad truck (521) which is a Heavy Rescue Style Squad and is located south of Engine 14 (at Engine 5 and Truck 2’s house where they respond with it on the same special duty runs as 522. Chicago had 14 of those Seagraves . Six were 1993 models ,two were 1996 models and six more were 1996 models. I don’t know if Chicago is still using any older spare straight Aerial Ladders. I know that there are currently four 2000 model E/One Aerial Ladders in the spare pool and there is also one 2002 Pierce that had been Truck 42’s regular rig.
As far as the Pierces go I could tell you that the last time that there was a request for bids on new Trucks four manufacturers had initially submitted bids and they were Pierce,E-One, Ferrara and Spartan/Erv. Over a period of about a year there were several groups of bids that were initially rejected by the city and the city had put in addtional requests for bids at least three time before they had finally accepted and decided to go with Spartan Ervs bid. I can’t fill you in with any more details however perhaps some other people on this site can better answer your question or give you more details.
#10 by Bill Post on October 30, 2013 - 12:39 AM
Mike Mc, there is no question that the Mack Magirus’s were rear mounted Aerial Ladders even though the 144 footers were more of an experimental type of rig because of the height of the Aerial Ladder but Chicago did run the 144 footers as regular Truck companies until the end which was into the mid 1970’s). The 144 footers where originally assigned to Trucks 3 and 39 (when they were at 158 w Erie and at 25 S Laflin) and they were eventually reassigned to Trucks 2 and Trucks 8. The 100 footers were assigned to Truck 10 and Truck 30 after they were broken in downtown. They ended up on the southwest side (before going out of service) where they served at Trucks 45 ,59 and some time at Truck 8 as well.
I wonder what the story was as to Chicago and New York City purchasing 144 Magirus Ladders within a year of Chicago’s purchase. New York CIty had purchased two of them as well except the ones in New York were classified as 146 footers and they were built on the new Mack C cab chassis which were the kind of cabs that were on the 5 Mack Pirsch Mid Mount Ladders that Chicago bought in 1966.
Chicago had gotten more use of the 144 footers then New York City did as in New York City the rigs had the 146 foot Ladders removed and replaced with 100 foot Grove Aerial Ladders in 1969. Speaking about William Foley being a Tillerman on Truck 30 , I am sure that the reason why that they gave Truck 30 one of the new Mack Magirus 100 foot Aerial Ladders is because they needed more space in their quarters (at 6017 S State street) for Engine 51 who had moved into their quarters in November of 1960.
It’s funny how Boston had gone from their Tillered Aerial Ladders to being a completely Tillerless fire department and for a while in the 1980’s and especially the 1990’s and became virtually completely all E/One. They apparently had gotten a good deal with them. In a way it kind of reminds me when Chicago was getting most of it’s Engines and many of it’s Trucks from E-one in the late 70’s and 1980’s.
With the exception of elevating Platforms both Philadelphia and Washington DC’s Ladders are all Tillered as of now. Most of Baltimore Trucks are also Tillered so Boston appears to be the exception on the east coast.
In regards to San Francisco and Los Angeles you do make a good point about both fire departments using wooden ground ladders however in the case of San Francisco I think that they have remained with Tillered Aerial Ladders because they have all of the hilly and narrow streets.
In the case of Los Angeles with them I do believe that is more of a Traditional thing because even though there are definitely some areas with hills and narrow streets where Tillered Ladders are absolutely necessary there are still plenty of wide boulevards in West Los Angeles and the San Fernando Valley where they don’t have to use them.
Los Angeles City has a very unique and an interesting fire department however if you should attempt to question why they haven’t so much as tried out using a Tower Ladder, on line, some their “fans” become very defensive and get insulted.
#11 by Sebastian on October 29, 2013 - 9:39 PM
Are any of the seagrave 90’s era trucks
Still front line? Just curious. And the other question was, back in 2000 when cfd took the plunge and went with pierce for the trucks, are they not happy with them? Or is it a money thing that they are not going with them again?? Some one please explain this!! Thank you
#12 by Mike Mc on October 29, 2013 - 9:30 PM
Thanks for the info Bill. I am not sure it would be historically accurate to call the Mack Magirus ladders rear mounts. They were more like a special apparatus jury rigged as a truck. As you know, the limited space for ground ladders was a major issue. It was not until the Seargrave rear mounts in 1967 that you had a true rear mounted truck apparatus.
I always thought that Boston was foolish to eliminate all of their tillers. I have been there and have observed the E-One rear mounts turning and backing up, turning and backing up, two and three times just to make a routine turn down a side street. Many of the streets are still the same as laid out in the 17th century.
I could be wrong here, but I believe that one reason why LA City and San Francisco still insist on tillers is because they still use only wooden ground ladders. I’m not sure a full set of woooden ground ladders would fit and be weight compatable with a rear mount. Maybe someone more knowledgable can enlighten us.
I always thought that Bill Foley, Chief Fire Marshal and former head of the shops, should have put his foot down in 1976 and insist that Quinn purchase Seagrave cabs, with jump seats, to go along with the tillers. Even in 1976, the idea of FFs hanging onto the side of the rig was well recognized as an unecessary risk. Foley was on old tillerman on Truck 30.
Being a tillerman was an honor. The second most senior firefigher member of the truck was the tillerman. The most senior drove. Candidates were almost never trained as tillermen. I was told that it took a lot of leverage to turn the wheel on the old wooden aerials.
#13 by Bill Post on October 29, 2013 - 5:16 PM
Chicago will not be putting a Tillered Aerial Ladder Truck in service in the near future. I do agree that a case can probably be made for perhaps a few of them located in some congested areas which are mainly located near the Lakefront. Chicago started phasing out our Tillered Aerial Ladders in 1959/60 when the CFD had purchased 4 Mack B Cab/Magirus Aerial Ladders. The first two were 100 footers and the second two were 144 footers and were rear mounted. Chicago didn’t start replacing them in earnest until late 1966 after Chicago had a bond issue that was passed by the voters of Chicago and Chicago started buying new Aerial Ladder Trucks. The first 5 were Mack/Pirsch Mid mounts and we also had purchased 2 Seagrave mid mounts however all of the rest were rearmounted Aerial Ladder trucks.
From 1966 until 1976 Chicago purchased about 50 straight frame Aerial Ladder Trucks. In 1976 Chicago had 5 Tillered Aerial Ladder Trucks delivered that consisted of 1975 model International Harvester tractors with new Seagrave 100 foot Aerial Ladders that were mounted on rebuilt and reconditioned 1954 model FWD (Four Wheel Drive) trailers. The FWD trailers were originally part of an order of about a dozen FWD 85 foot Wooden Laddered TDA’s. Chicago’s last batch of Wooden TDA’s were 7 1956 FWD models.
Getting back to the 5 International Harvester/FWD/Seagrave TDA’s they were the late Fire Commissioner Robert Quinn’s last hoorah for the Tillered Aerials. They were initially put in service at Trucks 41,14,53,54 and 42 however Truck 42’s rig was reassigned to Truck 32 after a few years.
The last of the TDA’s were taken out of service in 1989 and I believe that it was in service at Truck 54.
The Tillered Aerial Ladders were taken out of service because of changes in technology as Aerial Ladders that were 100 feet were being built on smaller chassis and they were easier to operate as they didn’t need a rear driver.
New York City which by far has the largest fire department in the USA and they also by and large got away from using Tillered Aerial Ladders with the exception of 13 Truck (Ladder) companies that are located in some areas with some very narrow streets.
In some areas with narrow streets and turns an Tillered Aerial Ladder does have some definite advantages which is why Philadelphia had tried using some rear mounted Ladders on some of it’s Truck companies in the early 80s’ but they didn’t purchase any more of them.
Boston which is an older city with narrow streets had taken their last Tillered Aerial out of service some time in the 1980’s and they haven’t purchased any since then however I know that had wanted to a few years ago (if they could have gotten a grant). The grant didn’t come through and their new Aerial Ladders are still rear mounted.
The Los Angeles City fire department never went to straight frame Aerial Ladder Trucks and all of their Trucks are Tillered and I believe that they are using them in most areas to maintain a tradition. There are some areas with narrow winding streets where they are needed such as in the Santa Monica Mountains (Hollywood Hills) and in some other areas such as East Los Angeles.
Some cities maintain a mixed fleet such as New York , Baltimore and Dallas Texas however they usually have the Tillered Aerials in areas where they are really needed because of tight turning radius’s and some narrow streets.
In Chicago’s case (as in most cases) it is mainly a matter of money and convenience as the TDA”S are more expensive and now it would also mean having to get some drivers qualified to drive the rigs.
That said there are a few areas where they could be used however as we have been getting by without them and cause of the cost involved Chicago is not purchasing any as of now.
#14 by Mike Mc on October 29, 2013 - 3:30 PM
The CFD concluded that they had more accidents with the tillers than the rear mounts. The tillers also required a second certified (extra money and training) driver, the tillerman. Finding qualified tillermen, even in the old days, was always a hastle. In the four men company, pre-strike (1980) days, there were actual incidents of the company officer being the tillerman for at least the early part of the shift, unitl a qualified tillerman could be found and detailed.
There are certain parts of the city where they would be useful, though. Tower Ladder 10 might be better served as a tiller. There is no way the tower ladder, or even a regular rear mount, gets down some of those very old and narrow streets in Old Town. Truck 8 would be another good candiate.
The two men cabs were not CFD “tradition”, it was simply that they were too cheap to purchase the sedan cab from the manufacturer. They would mix and match the tillers with standard commercial cabs made by Mack or International. As late as the 1976 tillers, the FFs had to hang onto the ground ladders on the sides of the rig.
#15 by David on October 29, 2013 - 2:19 PM
I don’t believe that they’ll ever get back to the tillers, the last TDAs the CFD used were the 1976 IHC/Seagraves which were in service untill the late 1980s, probably 1988 or so (not sure). Good question is why did the CFD stopped using them which I’m not really sure. To me the rearmounts seem to be slightly more practical as they’re shorter, don’t have to use an extra driver for the rear axle, etc… Another interesting thing was that the CFD tillers had (with just one exception which was a single 1942 Pirsch unit) all just had two door cab tractors which looked to me almost like some kind of a CFD tradition, I never knew the reason of this either.
#16 by FD543 on October 29, 2013 - 11:19 AM
What are the chances that Chicago puts at least 1 tiller truck company in service again, in the near future?
If they would not get one any time soon, what would be the reason(s) not to get it? (other than money, which is a likely obvious reason these days)
Why did CFD stop using tillers, whenever it was that they did? (1970’s?)
#17 by FFPM571 on July 15, 2013 - 6:15 PM
Wow.. that brings back some memories.. The old Superior Peanut wagon #4. Elmhurst’s Mack and Chevy wagon C-1 B’ville Eng 86. The rigs of my young fire fan days.
#18 by Mike Lopina on July 15, 2013 - 6:04 PM
Sweet pics, Steve! I had the pleasure of driving that Wood Dale truck for several years before it was sold off in 1999 to Havana, IL FD and WDFD got the Pierce Quantum rear-mount. Not sure if they still have it or where it is now. In 1997 we sent it out to get a new paint job, lights & a ladder refurb. The company doing the work had taken over the Pirsch factory and was in the process of fixing/welding the ladder when they went out of business. We got the truck back minus the ladder which we ran ladderless for a number of months until we could find someone to finish the ladder and reassemble it. Like all Pirsch ladders, it was quite a thrill to climb! We got serious about replacing it when we watched the footage of Truck 4 working that 45th & Cottage Grove fire making those rescues with the ladder twisting & turning….. Thanks again!
#19 by Jim Johnson on July 15, 2013 - 4:23 PM
Thanks for posting classic rigs nice shots