This from John Tulipano:
New engine just delivered (6/28/16) to Hanover Park – Engine 362 is a June 2016 Pierce Enforcer PUC 1500/750 Job #29475
New engine just delivered (6/28/16) to Hanover Park – Engine 362 is a June 2016 Pierce Enforcer PUC 1500/750 Job #29475.
John Tulipano photo
#1 by MABAS 21 on December 28, 2016 - 6:05 PM
What happened to the former Engine 362, 2005 E-One, was it reassigned/renumbered? Do they still have Engine 364, the lime colored Spartan/E-One?
#2 by Crabby Milton on July 2, 2016 - 11:19 AM
I hope not either but we’ll see. ALF had many embedded problems a long time coming. They were bought and sold any number of times in their long history. The last ownership had them and for about decade. DAIMLER couldn’t seem to do much with them either so I doubt they could be saved. That was shame because those EAGLE chassis really had a look to them that stood out but the rest of them stunk.
#3 by Bill Post on July 1, 2016 - 8:40 PM
That’s an interesting point Gnarltoad. I only hope that the REV group is nothing like Patriarch Partners Group which is the firm that Freightliner had sold American La France to and Patriarch Partners had let American La France go to H-LL. Patriarch Partners had American La France stop producing the Snorkel and it took them to go bankrupt and sell their assets in order finally have Smeal buy the right to start manufacturing the Snorkel again. Had Patriarch Partners not been so stingy with the Snorkel rights, the Chicago Fire Department probably would have had new Snorkel Squads several years ago.
Apparently some fire departments may like KME however there still seem to some fire departments that have had trouble with them. Even Pierce has had some problems as of late and I understand that they had to do a recall not that long ago. In 2008 the last time Chicago had bids for new engines and trucks, while the engine manufacturer was chosen after the first round of bids, the truck contract bidders weren’t as lucky as the city had to call for bidding three separate times and it wasn’t until after the third round of bids which was about a year after the first round took place that the city finally accepted a contract proposal and even then it took awhile to decide. I had read that on the third round 4 manufacturers had submitted bids which included E/One, Pierce, Crimson, and Ferrara and that E/One had been the lowest bidder however the contract went to Spartan/Crimson (later became ERV) but can’t tell you why they were chosen over E/One at the time.
I also had read that Smeal was a bidder on one of the earlier rounds of bidding but the first 2 rounds of bids were rejected by the city.
#4 by Gnarldtoad on July 1, 2016 - 6:05 PM
don’t forget that KME was purchased by REV group who owns E-ONE.
#5 by Bill Post on July 1, 2016 - 1:14 PM
Crabby it turns out that Boston is in the process of suing Navistar and not KME.
I agree with you about Spartan products and am surprised that Chicago so far hasn’t ordered any tower ladders from Spartan Erv however they apparently were able to get a good deal when they purchased those new E/One tower ladders from that Houston Galveston area fire apparatus consortium. In the mid 2000s when Chicago had signed the now expired contract with Spartan ERV for the new aerial ladders that were delivered over the last few years, had to be rebid on several times over a period of a year and a half and E/One had almost received that contract however the city had once again asked for a rebid. Chicago’s old E/One tower ladders have been serving the city very well as spares and I like the basket design of the new E/ones.
The E/One engines being delivered to Chicago are part of the O’Hare field contract which was for 5 engines. I wouldn’t be surprised however if Chicago ends up purchasing more apparatus from E/One if the tower ladders and the new engines on order work out. We have yet to see what happens.
#6 by CrabbyMilton on July 1, 2016 - 12:50 PM
There’s an old saying called follow the money. No, you can’t rule out Chicago or Milwaukee buying lower cost custom types based on cost alone never mind if they turn out to be worthless crap. SPARTAN has a good solid reputation while the SEAGRAVE, SUTPHEN and sometimes PIERCE have been known to be higher in price. I hate to pick on KME but at least they are better than a commercial chassis. I forgot about the MAXFORCE disaster. Hopefully they repowered those with CUMMINS.
#7 by Bill Post on July 1, 2016 - 12:26 PM
Crabby it is ironic that Boston was running with an almost exclusive E/One fleet of both engines and trucks through the 1990’s and then in the early 2000’s they started buying Pierce but they were not happy with them so they resumed ordering some rigs from E/One however they also ordered a number of rigs from KME.
In March of 2014 there was a tragic wind-driven extra-alarm fire in Boston where two fire fighters were killed that were trying to rescue people. A report was released several months ago that was critical of both inadequate training as well as unreliable equipment. It turns out that many of the KME apparatus that was purchased from 2010 through 2011 had faulty Navistar engines so the fire apparatus was out of service frequently. There was a report came out that questioned why Boston had purchased so many apparatus from KME in recent years when it was known that apparatus from them was having engine problems. Boston is suing KME for the problems that they have been having with those rigs. While KME doesn’t have the greatest reputation there have been quite a few major departments that have been purchasing or in some cases leasing apparatus from KME. Among fire departments that have a significant number of KME apparatus are Los Angeles County, Los Angeles city, and New York City has purchased KME pumpers over the last two years. San Diego leased quite a few KME engines in the early to mid 2000’s however they were unhappy with them and have been returning them to replace with Pierce.
While Los Angeles city purchased quite a few KME engines over the last several years they haven’t purchased any aerials from them and are now in the process of getting Pierce tillered aerials for the first time.
The Los Angeles County Fire Department has been buying KME engines and tractor-drawn quints almost exclusively since the late 1990s and continues purchasing from them.
All that said I really hope that when Chicago finally requests bids for new apparatus that KME isn’t a bidder for the contract.
#8 by CrabbyMilton on July 1, 2016 - 11:42 AM
That’s all too typical of some nanny types mandating service life of a rig based on that they think the individual departments are too stupid to make the determination that the rig is at the end of it is service life and needs to be replaced.
Transit buses have a 12 year mandated life then the feds cut off the money so they are usually sold off with real no incentive to build them to last beyond 15 years unless someone buys them and gives them some TLC. Sounds like the same pattern with fire apparatus. Perhaps that’s why FDNY is going with a lower cost builder(KME) instead of SEAGRAVE. Figure that why spend that much when they have to get rid of it in about 15 years or so anyway.
#9 by Bill Post on July 1, 2016 - 10:46 AM
Yes it turns out that Hanover Park first line rigs are well within their recommended service life yet. That does bring a question and that is I know that for quite a while the recommended maximum front line service life of a heavy fire apparatus (engines, trucks, squads etc) was 20 years and about 5 additional years in reserve service according to the National Fire Protection Association, however, as of late I have been hearing that 15 years may now be the maximum recommended front line service life with an additional 1 year in reserve. So has anyone else heard about the reduction in recommended years in front line service?
A few months ago around the time that the three new E/One tower ladders were delivered there was a report on the news which was talking about how many Chicago rigs were reaching the maximum recommended service life and they had someone from the National Fire Protection Association on camera.
It turns out that when the report was on the news that Tower Ladder 34 had just gotten their new E/One put in service so the story about Tower Ladder 34 became irrelevant however it still is relevant when it comes to any other rigs that are over 15 years old and are still in frontline service.
Currently Chicago’s oldest frontline rigs are 5 1997 HME Luverne engines that are 19 years old. There are also 6 (shortwheel base) 1998 and 1999 model HME Luverne engines 18 and 17 years old.
So far only 3 of the 5 1997 HME’s will be replaced as there are only 3 E/one engines that are being delivered in a few months.
There are still five 2000 E/One aerials that need to be replaced not to mention Tower Ladder 21’s 1996 HME/LTI that is 20 years old.
Here is link to the news report from a few months ago.
http://abc7chicago.com/news/chicagos-aging-fire-dept-fleet-uncovered-by-i-team/1319474/
#10 by CrabbyMilton on July 1, 2016 - 5:52 AM
Bill, I’m sure PIERCE could handle that. You’re right that at least for the next few years, CFD will likely not order anything from PIERCE. The ARROW XT would be the most likely chassis if they would ever do that. but then again, PIERCE has a wide range of chassis to pick from.
MFD and most of the Milwaukee County departments have nothing but PIERCE for the last several years. At least in Milwaukee, all reports are that they really like them. MFD had many E-ONE HUSH pumpers from 1990 until the late 90’s. They were pretty but not very well liked for some reason. I asked a couple of MFD guys one chance meeting at a popular local frozen custard stand as they pulled in for a custard with a reserve E-ONE. One of them said that they had a lot of trouble with it and that the engine (DETROIT S-50) cuts out often. So I don’t know if that was problem with that particular engine (which has long been discontinued) but regardless of the engine, it does leave a bad taste overall.
Now this doesn’t mean that Milwaukee will always buy PIERCE and won’t ponder some other builder same with CFD.
#11 by Michael M on July 1, 2016 - 1:49 AM
I believe Engine 362 is 11 years old and 361 is 6 or seven years old. The oldest front line rig in Hanover Park is the 2000 Alexis.
#12 by Bill Post on June 30, 2016 - 9:29 PM
I agree with you Crabby that rig is very impressive, in fact if Chicago were to ever order one (which I am sure that they won’t) that what the Chicago rig would like as far as the black over rig color scheme goes. Being realistic about it that design Engine wouldn’t be practical for Chicago however it would be interesting if Chicago would ever order Pierce Engines that were based on their current specs for city based Engine companies. The current order of three E/One Engines are basically a modified add on order to the contract for the two huge E/Ones that were put in service at O”Hare during the last year.
#13 by Sebastian on June 30, 2016 - 9:21 PM
Seems like hanover park gets new rigs every few years! Thought they’re e-one is only five years old or so???
#14 by Rusty on June 30, 2016 - 6:22 PM
The Enforcer Chassis resembles an HME 1871 Chassis.
#15 by Crabby Milton on June 30, 2016 - 5:03 PM
Very sharp and impressive.