Found on Chicago Fire Department Firefighters Union – Local 2 Facebook page:
The job our members do is dangerous enough, now their health and safety is at risk with old and failing equipment! The conditions of our spare rigs are awful. Literally from falling apart to now catching on fire, all which is preventable. At least in this incident no one was hurt. #local2atwork #cfdprofessionals
thanks Tim
#1 by Tim on June 25, 2021 - 9:27 PM
Bill, a few things you didn’t mention in your post. When comparing CFD to Phoenix or Dallas…..they don’t use any corrosives on their roads in the winter months. Between the salt, calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, oh yea and the beet juice none of the apparatus have a fighting chance.
As far as replacing rigs in the 70’s and 80’s, they bought a small number of rigs at a time from different manufacturers. 2 rigs from company X, 5 from company Y, 8 from company Z. The purchasing was consistent the manufacturer wasn’t.
#2 by LT/PM Wayne Kinzie on June 25, 2021 - 5:31 PM
Years ago the city made a couple of emergency purchases and stationed them both at engine 23’s house.
The engine was a 2000 ALF, for engine 23(d-572)used it for about 9 years, the other rig was for tower ladder 5 and arrived in 2001(e-295)replaced in 2018.When I was detailed there as a firefighter I was told by the assigned members the tower originally had a pump on it which was removed by the city before it went in service.
And as Crabby stated earlier, the Alf engine was used by the squads as a spare and lettered as a squad.
Loved working there on the 2nd platoon. great group of guys!
#3 by crabbymilton on June 24, 2021 - 6:23 AM
Thanks Bill. I think that ALF EAGLE(that they converted to a squad) was an emergency purchase. So it can be done if their backs are against the wall.
#4 by Bill Post on June 23, 2021 - 11:47 AM
Danny you did a great job with that apparatus list, thanks.
On the subject of replacing rigs at 10 year intervals like New York City does, I agree that it would be great. However, right now I would settle for 12 to 15 years as Chicago has fallen so far behind that we really need to catch up.
There are some cities that run an apparatus replacement schedule that they try to keep their trucks in front line service a few years longer than their engines. Dallas and Phoenix have been trying to do things that way. Dallas will try to replace their engines at 10 to 12 years and they try to keep their trucks in front line service for 15 years. Phoenix has a good fire department. They are always trying out new apparatus. However, Phoenix is not a good comparison to Chicago as their numbers and the way they run things are quite a bit different.
While the Phoenix Fire Department runs with 65 engine companies, they only have 14 truck companies, each with a ladder tender which is a medium-duty rescue squad with ground ladders acting as a truck without an aerial device. When dispatched on a non fire emergency they have the option of responding with the ladder tender instead of the aerial ladder which relieves wear and tear. Still, 14 trucks in comparison to 65 engines is not a lot. A place like Phoenix should have at least 20 trucks in service. Fire departments in the Phoenix metro area don’t go by jurisdictional boundaries but are dispatched as the nearest available apparatus. Phoenix dispatches for at least half of the area fire departments which simplifies things for them.
Getting back to Chicago, here is something that bothers me. Tower Ladder 34 was recently taken out of service and replaced by conventional truck company while Truck 24 is now a tower ladder. I am aware that in Truck 34’s district there are many tight underpasses that are partly responsible for several accidents. Since Chicago has a contract with E-One, why doesn’t the CFD add an order for a mid-mount tower for Truck 34 so they can go back in service as a tower ladder? The lower travel height can address the low underpasses in Truck 34’s district.
The main problem with the CFD’s apparatus replacement schedule is consistency. In the late 70s and 80s Chicago was replacing engines at 10 to 12 years but has since fallen further and further behind. Now too many of frontline engines and trucks are pushing 19 and 20 years in service.
I agree that for obvious reasons this blog can’t be turned into a political blog however Crabby Milton you are spot on!
#5 by Danny on June 23, 2021 - 8:39 AM
Let’s leave the politics out of it. The chips always have come frome overseas to keep costs low and manufacturers profits higher and even domestic automakers are going through it Ford especially
#6 by crabbymilton on June 23, 2021 - 6:52 AM
If push comes to shove, they always have some apparatus in stock for emergency purposes but I’m sure CFD has that special provision in the contract with E-ONE that such a purchase would have to be with them as well.
As for the chip shortage, until January 20th, we had a POTUS that encouraged companies to build more things over here rather than being dependent of China and other assorted countries for such things. But they scoffed and now look what we have. A small part of the equation but it’s better to push for “Build it here.”
#7 by Tim on June 23, 2021 - 6:14 AM
Fred, once an order is placed and depending on manufacturer it’s usually 8 to 12 months. Could be longer but not usually shorter.
#8 by Aidan Hughes on June 22, 2021 - 12:40 PM
Any word on new apparatus orders for CFD?
#9 by Marty Coyne on June 22, 2021 - 12:14 PM
CFD does not buy from Pierce. The purchase agreement is with E-One. FSI is the rep for them. I suspect with the chip shortage there will be long delays. There is no way around that.
#10 by Fred M on June 22, 2021 - 9:55 AM
So how long does it take to build engines and trucks? I suspect all are suffering from the inability to get supplies/products to build these. Can Chicago side step the Fire Service Inc and purchase direct from Pierce to speed the process?
Bill Post – Comment??!
#11 by Danny on June 22, 2021 - 12:48 AM
I just realized truck 29 is listed twice… the no longer have the 2002 pierce but now have a 2020 e-one
#12 by danny on June 21, 2021 - 5:28 PM
from 2016 till now the city has ordered 7 towers (including ohare) 1 aerial tower, 13 ladders, 22 engines. on the subject of the purchase agreement that e-one and the city entered it was for 5 years and up to 106 million dollars. the numbers that floated around were maximum amounts that could be purchased in the agreement not a fixed number, cause in that case the city would be replacing some apparatus less then 5 years old with a new rig in the last year of the contract. they had bought 5 towers prior to the agreement signing in Jan 2019 and that agreement had 10 towers listed. even the document signed that was posted on this group shows the amount of the contract is a maximum not a set amount.
https://chicagoareafire.com/blog/tag/city-of-chicago-awards-contract-for-106035740-00-to-fire-service-inc-for-new-e-one-fire-trucks-for-the-chicago-fd/
if you want the fleet put into perspective i made a list. this list is based on what fleet is currently showing as front line apparatus to date not what companies are in long term spares or what companies rigs may be permanently out of service.
Chicago Fire Dept.
Engines by year in frontline service
2001-2002 Spartan/Luverne Models
2003-2012 Spartan/Crimson Models
2016-2020 E-One Cyclone II Models
(ORD) = Ohare Airport
2001 – 97, 8, 89, 56, 49, 112, 7, 99, 108, 22, 84,55, 96, 79, 70, 34
2002 – 78, academy (flat roof), 29, 54, 4, 110, 18, 16, 57, 101, 35, 45,
106, 46, 88, 107
2003 – 26
2004 – 75, 129, 44, 76, 123, 124, 92
2005 – 63, 68, 95, 117, 42
2006 – 38, 47, 113, 91, 1, 13, 83, 115, 109, 62, 64, 86, 98
2009 – 5, 69, 23, 119, 32, 122
2010 – 14, 65, 82
2011 – 60, 120
2012 – academy (raised roof), 15, 12(ORD)
2014 – 9(ORD), 10 (ORD)
2016 – 125, 73, 121
2017 – 28, 50, 71
2018 – 59, 80, 94, 103, 104, 116, 126
2019 – 11, 39, 74
2020 – 72, 81, 43, 93, 102, 127
Trucks by year in frontline service
2002-2006 Pierce Dash 100′ Models
2010-2014 Spartan Gladiator/Crimson 103′ Models
2016-2021 E-One Cyclone II 100′ Models
(TL) = Tower Ladder
(AT) = Aerial Tower (137Ft. E-One Cyclone II)
(TL-ORD) = Tower Ladder at Ohare Airport
2002 – 44, 25, 29, 48, 7, 26, 55, 32, 41, 60, 16, 38, Academy, 24(TL),
19, 27, 36, 33, 15, 53, 57, 45, 6
2005 – 23(TL), 54(TL)
2006 – 12, 18, 20
2010 – 62, 9, 56, 59, 51
2011 – 13, 42, 50, 61
2012 – 11, 28, Academy
2014 – 34, 1
2016 – 14(TL), 37(TL), 39(TL)
2018 – 5(TL), 21(TL)
2019 – 8(AT), 10(TL)
2020 – 30, 40, 52, 35, 58, 22, 4, 29, 3, 2, 17, 47
2021 – 63(TL-ORD)
#13 by Aidan Hughes on June 21, 2021 - 1:17 PM
CFD stopped placing orders for new apparatus due to financial losses related to the pandemic. Now, thanks to Mayor Lightfoot’s 3.8 billion dollar infrastructure plan, CFD will start ordering new apparatus again along with CDOT, CPD, etc. CFD will also get new bunker gear as part of the plan. The 13 trucks were ordered back in late 2019 and I hear rumors that CFD might order 8 engines, 10 trucks, and 3 tower ladders but I’m not entirely sure. They might start placing orders once the 2022 Fiscal Year starts on July 1, 2021. CFD has a very outdated fleet and they need to replace them every 10 years like FDNY.
#14 by crabbymilton on June 21, 2021 - 11:59 AM
Like it was stated before, it’s almost ongoing in big cities. By the time they turn over the whole fleet, they have to start all over again.
#15 by Bill Post on June 21, 2021 - 11:02 AM
Well it’s better that it happened at the shops then while on a run. Truck 25 is my first due truck.
Chicago is still on the contract for rigs with E-ONE. While last summer and early fall there were some trucks put in service, since then I haven’t heard about any upcoming new deliveries, so Chicago is running behind again. I am afraid it has to do with Chicago’s terrible mismanagement.
#16 by crabbymilton on June 21, 2021 - 6:47 AM
A quick glance at the picture made me thought that it was an out of service rig being used as a trainer. So that was an incident huh? That is concerning.
#17 by Tim on June 20, 2021 - 10:22 PM
FDNY has a strict apparatus policy that they adhere to. 10 years frontline 5 reserve, 5 spare then disposed of (at least that’s what it used to be). The red tape they have is they require every rig of an order to have it’s own bond, whereas normally an apparatus order will have 1 bond for all the rigs. That’s why many builders won’t submit a bid to FDNY. A few reasons why Seagrave is the majority of their fleet…..1. dependable as hell and 2. Seagrave knows the bond process well.
#18 by Rich s. on June 20, 2021 - 10:16 PM
Mike, I believe that FDNY has vehicles spelled out in the CBA with the city. If memory serves me correct 10 years front line and 5 years as a spare . I could be incorrect though. They also has a much larger fleet and a much larger budget.
#19 by Michael m on June 20, 2021 - 10:02 PM
New York must be able to cut the red tape.
#20 by Rich s. on June 20, 2021 - 9:34 PM
So this is E284 formerly T24. Truck 25 was changing into this rig at fleet and it caught on fire. Engine 72 was close by and quickly put it out. However the rig is probably a total loss. T25 then changed into E297 and is currently in that spare. This is a 21 year old spare which is not bad actually for the CFD. We are in the midst of a 105 million dollar contract with E-One and should be able to replace the entire fleet, IF the FINANCE DEPARTMENT allows fleet and Fire to use the funds to fill the order. These replacements are not as simple as they seem. This city is all red tape.
#21 by harry on June 20, 2021 - 8:54 PM
if chicago would buy 10 or 20 engines a year 10 trucks a year and so on they would have no problem like nyc fdny in 2016 bought like 99 engines
#22 by Martin on June 20, 2021 - 7:29 PM
Probably went to the shops and they got it back on the streets that night. ?
#23 by Michael m on June 20, 2021 - 6:10 PM
It takes time to get all new rigs for all 96 engine companies, 61 truck companies, 10 tower ladders 80 Ambulances 4 squads ect. I am sure they will get back on track with replacement of engines and trucks next year. Problem is once the cycle is complete say in 2024 it will have to start all over again quickly.
#24 by harry on June 20, 2021 - 5:42 PM
yes it is sad that chicago does not keep their rigs up to date
#25 by Rich on June 20, 2021 - 4:33 PM
WOW!!!! So did it back service?