Excerpts from jg-tc.com:
Last year, Charleston joined several other cities in the area in a class action lawsuit against Pierce Manufacturing, Inc. and Global Fire Equipment, Inc. claiming that they violated the terms of the warranty on the fire trucks they had made for the cities.
Charleston purchased two fire trucks in the early 2000s over a five-year period from the company.
Tim Meister, Charleston Fire Department assistant fire chief, said at the time that there is a lifetime warranty on the frame of the fire trucks for rust and corrosion damage, and currently, all three have varying degrees of rust on the frame. The city claimed that the company has not repaired or replaced the frames even though it is spelled out in the warranty to do so.
After some back and forth between attorneys involved in the case, a tentative agreement has been made.
Charleston Fire Chief Steve Bennett said one truck would get an entirely new rail and another would get repairs to the existing rail on the truck in the settlement. Both would be sent in for repair and replacement one at a time with a loaner truck provided.
Other terms of the agreement include:
- Charleston paying $13,333 for the frame rail replacement, receiving credit of equal value to be used toward other repairs and trucks from Pierce.
- Pierce will pickup and deliver the trucks from the city.
- Pierce will pay attorney costs.
- Pierce will provide recommended written maintenance practices and service bulletins regarding maintenance.
- Pierce will continue to honor existing warranties on the trucks
Today, council members will vote on whether they accept the new terms of the agreement at their meeting set for 6:30 p.m. at Charleston City Hall, 520 Jackson Ave.
The settlement included in the meeting documents did not include that of the other cities involved in the lawsuit.
#1 by Bill Post on September 22, 2018 - 9:16 PM
Anthony R or anyone else. Most of us already know that Pierce is number 1 in fire apparatus sales. I would like to know the percentage of apparatus sales by manufacturer in terms of market share. For example Pierce, E/One, Ferrara, Spartan ERV, Seagrave, KME, HME, and Rosenbauer? where do the top 10 or 15 fire apparatus manufacturers stand in terms of market share or sales?
Thanks.
#2 by Bill Post on September 22, 2018 - 8:15 PM
Fred while I can’t tell you exactly when the fire department gets involved, I can tell you that there were two people from the Department of Fleet and Facility Management (F2M) present at the meeting in March. That doesn’t include the project manager from F2M. I would have to assume that the fire department has a liaison who works with F2M. I would hope and expect they together work closely. I am surprised that there was no one from the FD that was listed on the attendees list of the pre-bid conference.
The triple-combination is for practical purposes a standard pumper. Triple-combination means is an engine has a pump, hose, and a water tank.
Until the late 1960’s and 70’s most of Chicago’s engines were not triple-combinations as the majority equipped with booster tanks. The last batch of pumpers that Chicago ordered in 1956 had 200-gallon booster tanks. They were 10, B-Model Mack pumpers. During the 1960s the CFD retrofitted a few 1949 Mack pumpers with small booster tanks. Sometimes that was done after one of the engines had to go into the shops for repairs. Beginning in late 1966 all of Chicago’s pumpers were delivered with booster tanks.
It’s funny because the Los Angeles City Fire Department for years referred to their engines as triples and to me it sounded kind of goofy until I had found out what it meant.
A quint, which has become common in some places has hose, pump, booster tank, ground ladders, and an aerial device. A quad is the same minus the aerial device. Years ago Chicago ran some quad units however they were just called combinations in Chicago. The last one that I know of ran at O’Hare as Engine 10 until the late 1960’s. A few of them were 1932 American LaFrances and some were 1929 and 1930 Seagraves. One ran as Engine 97 in Hegewisch until 1960 when it was replaced by a 1953 FWD pumper that was retrofitted with a ladder rack built over the hose bed. The rack was at a high enough angle so you would’t have to remove it to get at the hose. They technically weren’t a quad as the 1953 FWD didn’t have a booster tank however the older ALFs and Seagraves did.
Engine 88 also had a ladder rack that was installed on a 1948 Mack single-cab pumper assigned there in 1964. Also that rig didn’t have a booster tank. Chicago ran with a few of the old quads into the early 1950s. Engines 7 and 119 had them until additions were built onto their houses to accommodate truck companies 58 and 55. Engine 127 had one before the creation of Truck 54 at Midway Airport, and several more replaced double companies during the depression. Those were the closest things that Chicago had to today’s quints.
#3 by Fred M on September 22, 2018 - 6:21 PM
Bill Post…..I see that Fleet is involved, but where does the FD involvement start or stop? Can you explain to us novices what a triple combination pumper is vs standard pumpers?
#4 by Bill Post on September 22, 2018 - 4:40 PM
Here is more interesting information regarding the solicitation for the bids. On March 23, 2018 there was a Pre Submittal Conference in city hall that was sponsored by the Department of Fleet and Facility Management.
At the conference there were two attendees from Pierce, one from E-One, and one each from Fire Service Inc, Global Emergency Products, and Interstate Emergency Vehicles. The last three companies are manufacturer’s reps. Please keep in mind that this was a pre-bid conference and not actual bidding.
Since then the opening bid date was postponed several times. The first date was April 30, but was postponed to June 8th. That was then postponed to July 10th. That was further postponed to July 23rd and then again to September 24th. The bid date was postponed five times already. Keep your fingers crossed.
Now I don’t know who will be bidding but it is considered by most that E-One will most likely get it. Chicago has been purchasing engines and tower ladders over the past few years from E-One.. Based on the people and the distributors that attended the meeting in March, it definitely looks like E/One, Rosenbauer, and perhaps Pierce could be bidding. Whether Spartan, Ferrara, or Seagrave will bid is a good guess. Seagrave stopped bidding in Chicago the last time aerial ladders were requested in 2009.
Chicago plays games (politics) with it’s contracts. In 2009 the Department of Fleet Management had to put out a request for bids at least three times as the bids were rejected twice. It took about a year before they finally accepted the bids. In the 3rd round E-One, Pierce, Spartan, and Ferrara took part. The lowest and second lowest bids were rejected and the contract went to Spartan Erv, with the second highest bid price.
It would be good if Ferrara would bid on this contract but I wouldn’t be surprised if they and others do not as they saw first hand in 2009 what they had to go through just to bid on aerials. It took three rounds of bids to be accepted.
#5 by Bill Post on September 22, 2018 - 2:56 PM
Mike those numbers are arranged in columns and are next to each of the three types of apparatus. Those numbers do make sense given the age of what the apparatus is and will be within the next five years however the wording isn’t 100% explicit. In numbers it makes perfect sense considering the fire department has been attempting to replace apparatus between the ages of 12 to 15 years. As you probably know there is currently apparatus beyond 15 years old. It is more explicit that the contract is to last for 60 months so I think they will probably order so many pieces each year and hope that the money lasts for them to order more each year. The key word above the column where the figures are is estimated. The wording can and should be more explicit however.
#6 by Bill Post on September 22, 2018 - 2:25 PM
That’s correct Mike.
I saw those numbers in an addendum issued by the city.
#7 by Mike on September 22, 2018 - 12:25 PM
Bill by reading what you wrote this will basically replace the entire fleet.
#8 by Rich S. on September 22, 2018 - 7:54 AM
Well thank you CFD and welcome back E-One!!! (Just my prediction) or wishful thinking! Better jacks,aerials, and service. The towers are great and so are the new engines!!
#9 by Bill Post on September 22, 2018 - 4:57 AM
There is an elephant in the room that has until now been ignored. In two days on September 24th, the department of procurement services will be accepting bids for a combined contract for aerial ladder trucks, tower ladders, and triple combination pumpers.
The contract is estimated to be for 60 months and the amount of apparatus is estimated to be up to 45 ladders, 8 tower ladders, and 90 engines. The bids are to be received no later then 11am.
That said, this is unusual for Chicago to ask for a bid which includes engines, trucks, and tower ladders in one bid. Previously there were separate bids for each type of apparatus.
#10 by anthony R on September 21, 2018 - 4:08 PM
You may be be right for cummins i mean never put a cummins in a Pierce . Those seem to break down to much get a Detroit. They need to bring back the caterpillar engines that ford powerstroke won’t do well. As for spartan i wen’t off of How Mongomery County Fire In Maryland liked Theirs. Their crimsons are problematic and they are switching back to pierce. They used to be a pierce and Seagrave customer. Dallas is also switching pierce we will see how that goes.
Houstons is going pierce and spartan. Their Ferrera’s are problematic .
#11 by Localguy on September 21, 2018 - 8:36 AM
Longtime Cummins guy here too. Even have a cummins in my personal truck. Anyway, Spartan should be on the lists of solid apparatus. We switched to Spartan and are ordering our third now. Several large depts buy Spartan and continue to buy Spartan. I think its an unfair statement to say some manufactures have issues with transmissions and others do not. They all have Allison. Just like anything else, some will have issues and some will not. No different than one car on the dealer lot compared to the one right next to it. Same car but one might have problems and one might not. With fire apparatus it comes down to how said manufacture puts all the pieces together then stands behind it. Cummins is cummins and Allison is Allison. Each manufacture doesn’t have a special motor, trans, pump, lights, or whatever made specifically for them. So you cant say eone had engine problems. Its the same engine everyone else has. Unless your Pierce and can get a Detroit.
#12 by CrabbyMilton on September 21, 2018 - 6:10 AM
Oh Anthony old buddy. Now those are fighting words being that I’m a very longtime CUMMINS stockholder. 🙂
Well, competition is a good thing and I’ll hand it to PIERCE that they are the only builder that offers a choice with engines.
I really don’t know how that FORD POWERSTROKE will get over though.
#13 by anthony R on September 21, 2018 - 12:58 AM
http://www.wglt.org/post/normal-council-mulls-lawsuit-over-fire-trucks#stream/0
https://jg-tc.com/news/local/city-joins-lawsuit-against-fire-truck-manufacturer/article_9610a576-1990-54ac-a063-80630c8e5088.html
https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Judge-approves-settlement-in-shaved-wages-suit-against-Pierce-Manufacturing-425505584.html
https://www.statesman.com/news/local/cedar-park-suit-says-company-sold-city-unreliable-fire-truck/ZcLyisykHmwEg0sFHztrTL/
https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/329735-firetruck-company-burned-class-action-wages/
#14 by anthony R on September 21, 2018 - 12:50 AM
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/firefighting/firefighters-forum/86227-seagrave-aerialscope-big-problems
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/72359-2000-seagrave-quint-issues
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/24794-seagrave-infohttps://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/8519-seagrave-warranty-problems
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/83534-kme-quality
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/35843-philly-s-kme-s
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/101951-boston-fd-kme-engine
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/91180-michigan-department-wants-to-return-kme-aerialhttps://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/85964-pierce-quality
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/85964-pierce-quality
https://www.wjbf.com/news/after-spending-millions-city-gets-burned-by-new-fire-rigs/1015698917
https://www.wcvb.com/article/5-investigates-overhaul-of-troubled-boston-fd-fleet-called-abject-failure/8233794
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/63891-anyone-had-any-major-problems-with-pierce
http://www.firelawblog.com/2017/06/14/illinois-cities-suing-pierce-warranty-claims/
Problems with diff manufacturers btween 2000-2018
#15 by anthony R on September 21, 2018 - 12:23 AM
Never buy a cummins always detroit saves you money. Also take your problems up with the dealer not Pierce saves you time.
#16 by anthony R on September 21, 2018 - 12:14 AM
https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Pierce-Mfg/reviews
#17 by anthony R on September 21, 2018 - 12:13 AM
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Pierce-Manufacturing-Reviews-E17530_P3.htm
The problem is poor coomunication .
That is word from the employees not me click the link
#18 by anthony R on September 20, 2018 - 11:59 PM
Rich s. sorry to hear that idk how all these depts have problems with pierce but not ours maybe its luck . could be the dealer
#19 by rich S. on September 20, 2018 - 9:55 PM
Well now, I do know that we have several pierce saber 100′ rear mount aerial ladders and tower ladders from like 2000 thru 2008. And we have had several problems with them – electrical, transmission, radiator, blower motors, aerial rust (which is severe) 3 rigs had to be sent to (E-One) to have the main aerials rebuilt completely. Pierce said we didn’t wash them and dry them correctly…. so yeah! we are one of the largest departments in the country and believe me the big bosses at Pierce knew of the problems and 0 help. so no more pierce for us. They were great in the 80’s and 90’s but now they are only good for calendar pics!!
#20 by anthony R on September 20, 2018 - 6:29 PM
Forgot to add tankers and crash units
Tankers
1.Seagrave
2.UsTanker
3.Pierce
4.Eone
5.Sutphen
CrashUnits
1.Oshkosh
2.RosenBaurer
3.Eone
#21 by anthony R on September 20, 2018 - 6:04 PM
I know pierce has its problems btw lol.
1.warranty work
2.the tire problem
3.ladder failure(though they have redesigned their ladders lately)
4.minor common problems.
5.Rust
Seagrave_
1.Rust
2. Door latch
3.transmission
4. Wheel problems.
Eone-
1.Numerous electronic problems.
2.Transmission problems.
Sutphen_
1.Pump problems
Kme-
1. Everything
Ferrara-
1.Everything
Marion
1. Don’t know much about them
Rosenbuarer
1.Everything
All other spartan brand products
1.Everything
In conclusion most of the problems with pierce are with the customer sales dept and warranty work. Once the Big guys realize that Quality will improve. With them is either hit or Miss. Seagrave has its problems the difference is they listen more to the customer in resolving them. I am not biased at all just stating how i see it @MikeC
Here is a list of what i think each manufacturer is best at
Rescues-
1.Pierce
2.Sutphen
3.Seagrave
Ladders-
1.Sutphen
2.Seagrave
3.Pierce
Engines-
1.Seagrave
2.Sutphen
3 .Pierce
Special operations rigs-
1.Eone
2.Pierce
3.Sutphen
4.Seagrave
5.Rosenbuarer
#22 by anthony R on September 20, 2018 - 5:16 PM
why our you so mad . i don’t work for pierce .
this is my cities dept all pierce.
we don’t have problems with them lol. calm down. and yes i read the articles . i can find more articles too lol does it really matter that much to you
http://www.firenews.org/ct/b/bridgeport/bridgeportct.html
They are not opnion based either the articles i posted are facts lol their was recalls and everything . but hey you can stay delusional and think seagrave is perfect ,. literally all manufacturers have problems. take care of the rigs you wouldn have as many problems.
#23 by Mike C on September 20, 2018 - 5:07 PM
This anthony R dweeb is a joke! Did you even read the articles? I bet I can find FAR MORE articles discrediting Pierce’s quality and problems. Most of the problems in these articles are insignificant or opinion based off of a forum! This nut probably works for Pierce!
#24 by anthony R on September 20, 2018 - 2:02 PM
our dept never had a problem with pierce so idk. our whole fleet is pierce. Imo its
1.pierce
2.seagrave
3.sutphen
#25 by Crabbymilton on September 20, 2018 - 10:12 AM
Great point but it still falls on PIERCE to make sure their reps are doing their job.
I don’t know why communication is often so poor but the customer doesn’t care about internal childishness.
#26 by Old Timer on September 20, 2018 - 9:30 AM
Too many times these issues get lost between he said he said the Department the Dealer reps and the Manufacturer. Many years ago thru the DuPage Fire Mechanics now the Illinois Fire Mechanics we had some major issues with Pierce. We invited Jim Parker then Pierce VP down to one of our meetings along with the dealership owner it was well worth it on all sides. You have the upcoming Chiefs, Instructors, Mechanics Conference do it again with invites to any or all Manufacturers not just the dealers.
#27 by CrabbyMilton on September 20, 2018 - 5:48 AM
Exactly Rich.
I did state that nothing is perfect and problems will crop up at times but it’s how the problems are handled that counts.
PIERCE handled the rust and suspension issues very badly.
It really makes no difference to the customer if the company is owned by a family or a world wide corporation, they want it the rig to work and last for at least 20 years with reliable service.
It does defy logic why PIERCE would build up customer loyalty for decades then screw that up. Can’t make much money if customers don’t come back.
Hopefully they learned their lesson but only time will tell.
#28 by Gary on September 20, 2018 - 5:47 AM
I would disagree with the horrible customer service. We have 8 since 2009, they have had some issues but we the dealer has been stand up and made sure we had a satisfactory outcome. Some issues were OUR fault due to lack of proper maintenance. Overall, they have been excellent and we will buy again from them. I think it have a tremendous amount to due with the dealer and them standing up for their customers.
#29 by Rich S. on September 19, 2018 - 9:47 PM
Nothing is perfect however when you’re paying 500,000 to 600,000 for apparatus that is supposed to last 15 to 20 years and 2 years in there are major frame, aerial, or electrical issues and the manufacturer will not address the problems and goes out of their way to blame the end user that’s where the line gets drawn!! Pierce is a horrible customer service and warranty company. Pierce thinks they are above everyone else ad it shows, It’s very sad. When they were family owned they were superior quality now JUNK!!
#30 by anthony R on September 19, 2018 - 2:22 PM
Proves my point
http://www.emtbravo.net/topic/19517-fdny-seagrave-issues/
https://forums.firehouse.com/forum/emergency-vehicles-operation/apparatus-innovation/70001-fdny-seagrave-problems
https://triblive.com/news/westmoreland/10816833-74/engine-fire-truck
https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/transmission-malfunction-prompts-seagrave-fire-truck-recall.html
#31 by Crabbymilton on September 19, 2018 - 2:14 PM
Find anything in this world that’s perfect at all times every time.
#32 by anthony R on September 19, 2018 - 2:00 PM
Pierce isn’t inferior every single manufacturer makes lemons lol
#33 by harry on September 19, 2018 - 1:30 PM
well I know franklin pk had a seagrave and never liked it it was at the shop all the time heck the day it was delivered on april 28 2005 it had a light out already
#34 by CrabbyMilton on September 19, 2018 - 6:06 AM
75SEAGRAVE much of what you say is quiet accurate. I have heard similar comments in a conversation I had with a member of a suburban Milwaukee County fire department that bought a SEAGRAVE after experiencing the rust issue and the treatment of such afterward on the part of PIERCE.
That was last year and the fact that they still love their SEAGRAVE pumper and have since bought 2 more speaks volumes.
The sad fact that much of this could have been avoided if some people at PIERCE hadn’t decided that quality isn’t important since “we” own the market anyway.
Perhaps PIERCE is positioning itself to compete in the low cost high turnover customer base. Like FDNY that seems to turn over the fleet every 10 years or so.
#35 by 75Seagrave on September 19, 2018 - 1:18 AM
Spend the extra dough for quality and get a Seagrave!! It will pay off in the long run.
#36 by Mike C on September 18, 2018 - 9:52 PM
When are people going to stop buying this junk? Pierce makes an inferior product! Their marketing is amazing and people buy into this snake oil! Unbelievable!