Rosenbauer America is to build the new two-piece squads for the Chicago Fire Department. Each unit will feature the Rosenbauer Commander cab and chassis. The boom will reportedly be fashioned after the Stinger boom used on the Panther ARFF units with the addition of a bucket at the end.
thanks Dennis and Josh
#1 by Mike Mc on April 14, 2013 - 9:47 PM
Are they possibly ordering only two sets so that all four would not be on the same annual budget?
#2 by chris on April 14, 2013 - 6:27 PM
have the rigs been started yet, any in progress pics?
#3 by Bill Post on April 14, 2013 - 5:42 AM
Jason, I would like to make a correction. The original Snorkel 7 was not a Snorkel-squad, but a regular Snorkel company that responded with two or three men on Still and Box alarms and higher for the use of the Snorkel. The wall collapse was on July 7, 1970, at 1750 N. Ashland Avenue, and the late firefighter Jack Walsh succumbed a month later on August 16th. I was on the scene of the fire before the collapse took place. Yes, you are correct that Snorkel 7 was never put back in service and wasn’t replaced. After the collapse Snorkel 5 became the only Snorkel company on the north side until Snorkel 6 was relocated from Engine 46’s house on the far south side to Engine 110’s house on November 16th 1971. It’s ironic, but in the 1968 consultant study done for the Chicago Fire Department, it had been recommended that Snorkel 7 be relocated to Engine 110, and that Snorkel 6 be taken out of service. Instead, the fire department just relocated Snorkel 6 to Engine 110’s house over a year later.
I also remember when the Los Angeles City Fire Department’s (LAFD) 85-foot Snorkel flipped over and a firefighter was killed. It was an unfortunate accident. After that, the LAFD took both of their 85-foot Snorkels out of service, however they kept their four 50-foot Snorkels in service. Those were assigned to four of their five heavy-duty task forces until 1978, when those were downgraded to regular task forces. The Snorkel units were either reassigned or taken out of service.
Since the late 70s/early 80s, the LAFD hasn’t run with any elevating platforms at all, and has not even so much as bought a tower ladder. Their brass appears to be happy with using only aerial pipes for elevated streams.
#4 by Dennis on April 12, 2013 - 9:20 PM
Turns out they’re only getting two sets (snorkel and chase rig) at this time. Unknown who’s getting them.
#5 by Jason on April 12, 2013 - 7:03 PM
Speaking of Squad 7, I remember how the original Snorkel Squad 7 was disbanded after a building collapse destroyed it and sent one of it’s firefighters from the top of the Snorkel to the ground below, killing him. A similar incident of a Snorkel tipping over occurred with an 85-foot model in Los Angeles in the 1960s. It tipped over suddenly and killed 1 firefighter while seriously injuring another in the bucket. It’s a miracle ANYONE survived that fall.
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#6 by Joel Hallstrom on January 22, 2013 - 9:58 PM
I want to make a correction to one of my prior posts. Metz units are now actually shipped complete for mounting here in the states. This was not the case in the past, but I’ll eat crow when necessary…
#7 by Jacob on January 21, 2013 - 9:18 PM
i think that he means they are going to be the smaller box truck and snorkel. also i think that they will just keep the mini pumper and give it a new signature, similar to the one that is at midway.
#8 by Sebastian on January 21, 2013 - 6:29 PM
By the same do you mean box squad and mini pumper or box and snorkle?
#9 by Dennis on January 21, 2013 - 4:27 PM
It should be the same as the order that Rosenbauer is building.
#10 by Brian on January 21, 2013 - 3:43 PM
Dennis, will Squad 7 be a two piece with a snorkel or remain how they operate now?
#11 by Dennis on January 21, 2013 - 2:08 PM
As of yet none of the squads are being built, things are still in the first phase of meetings with the city and Rosenbauer. The 4th set of the new squads will be going to Squad 7 at O’Hare. The reason being is that the person in charge of new rig purchases decided to tag on to the order of new squads instead of bidding out a separate order for Squad 7.
#12 by jeff harkey on January 9, 2013 - 9:24 PM
Gentlemen,
Greetings from North Carolina. Need to ask one specific question about O’Hare ARFF stations, and this thread seemed quite active and also mentioned the 6th Battalion. My apologies that it’s not Snorkel related!
Can someone help me locate O’Hare Rescue Station 4, which is supposed to house BN and 6-5-9. I can find no mention of it in official O’Hare documents and airport maps. I have found one reference that says it is on the far North side of the airport, south of E Touhy.
The only structure I have found that looks like it could be an ARFF station is at 42.000654, -87.918439.
See this link, and then zoom out: http://binged.it/XPk9dt
Many thanks,
Jeff
#13 by Admin on January 9, 2013 - 9:57 PM
Jeff,
that’s it. The building houses the radio shops and the far north/east section houses the ARFF as an interim location to make the index for the newest runway.
#14 by Mike Mc on January 8, 2013 - 11:38 PM
Chuck,
I did not know Ulysses Brunson personally but I certainly knew who he was. I remember that he was highly respected by the other firemen, and the officers always wanted him assigned to their shift. I fanned only on the 2nd shift. Among the guys that I remember were Bob Smith, Gerry Page, Mallory, and Spatz. The lieutenant was Bill Wood and later Pete Cunningham. Cunningham and the captain, Gene Callahan, went on to be DDC’s. The 17th Battalion Chief was named Kammerer and later the ill fated future deputy, (LODD), Jesse Stewart.
I only fanned on the 2nd shift because Tom Sutkus, whom I last heard was captain of Truck 32, was the fan who “had the rights to the squad” and he let me have the 2nd platoon. A lot of unwritten but closely followed rules back then on fire fanning. You ignored them at your peril.
As you know, the flying squads were sort of a gimmick. They wanted, I believe it was 19 men, responding on the still alarm to satisfy the insurance companies. It did not matter where they were responding from, so long as the numbers added up.
Also, as the manpower became even more critical in the late 1970’s, the so called “five man” companies” were often operating with four and you had the irony of the flying squads being in the supposedly lower fire frequency areas.
If FMS 2 followed Engine 92 or sometimes Engine 120 in the western half of their still district, they would literally drive past Truck 24, which would be sitting in quarters. Seems silly today, but that is how it worked. One truck on a still. No exceptions! The chiefs would have to pull a box if they needed help. No one dared to ask for an extra company on a working fire. Oddly enough, they would sometimes ask for a third engine or a second truck on large rubbish fires! The third engine would be for in-line pumping and the second truck might be for overhaul of an industrial type (tires, etc.) rubbish fire. But ask for a second truck to assist in forcible entry, ventilation, searches, laddering the building, overhaul or wash down …. no way!
When the flying squads were issued the Macks with rescue bodies, they became very valuable for special duty because, as I am sure you know, no one else, except SS-1, had a Hurst tool or for that matter any special equipment.
I always thought it interesting that Commissioner Quinn followed Maatman’s recommendation to outfit the flying squads with rescue tools and equipment. It seemed a little out of character since Quinn pushed to get rid of the original 13 Autocar squads.
I believe that the Mack flying squads are a major and largely forgotten reason that the CFD still has squads to today. If they had only been manpower companies, new squad companies might not have been organized after the strike, when the flying manpower squads were no longer needed. That could have been the end of squad companies in Chicago forever.
#15 by Brian on January 8, 2013 - 11:20 PM
Use an alias and spill the beans
#16 by Joel Hallstrom on January 8, 2013 - 10:21 PM
Trust me, the new booms won’t be built by Metz (Rosenbauer) like the current T-Rex is. Why?
1.) The delivery time isn’t practical. The contract calls for delivery of the units in 320 days. Having sold two Metz units, delivery is at least one year from contract signing. The American chassis is built, put on a boat to Europe, the aerial installed, then shipped back to the U.S. where the body is completed. 320 days is too aggressive to allow this. Metz does not ship completed platforms like Bronto does to be installed here on a chassis.
2.) The current Metz booms are entirely different animals than the concept in the bid drawings and what Chicago utilizes. The “Snorkel” is a single “elbow” articulating unit. The Euro units have two elbows and telescope as well.
3.) You’ll just have to trust me on the fact that I have it on good authority who will be building the booms.
#17 by Bill Friedrich on January 8, 2013 - 1:36 PM
Squad 7 has a Still District that goes to Harlem Ave. But can be called further if requested.
#18 by T on January 7, 2013 - 11:57 PM
How far east does Squad 7 respond to in the city outside of the airport? It cant be that large of an area because they are primarilly meant for the airport correct?
#19 by Chuck on January 7, 2013 - 7:17 PM
Bill – thanks for that very enlightening post – I was unaware of a great many of those ideas. About the only idea similar to those you mentioned was Engine 103 being taken out of service to form a new Tower Ladder at Midway, but the FAA supposedly wanted it to face in (airport only,) and the City wanted it to run in and out, so the idea was shelved. And Mike, if you spent time at FMS 2, you knew a couple of guys I had the privledge of knowing in Ulysses Brunson and Ronnie Kovacs. Both guys ended up on Squad 5 in 1980, and you could [not] find two nicer guys (and great firemen,) to boot.
#20 by Grumpy grizzly on January 7, 2013 - 5:28 PM
Getting runs for CFd is harder then getting injury reports for the NE Pats. What is the damn problem, you are right, in 2/3 weeks you WILL get EVERY FDNY companies runs/workers. And by the way lots of good info on many companies. Chicago is a great dept, I grew up in Boston. Guys you need to find a site that will show how good CFD is. Get the damn info out, many people are interested in the info. Just a buff from BFD (79) trying to get the info out for CFD. Info lost is info never received or understood. Care to care???????????
#21 by tony on January 7, 2013 - 10:48 AM
what if the 4th pair of squads goes to one of the new houses being built at o’hare as part of the expansion
#22 by Sam on January 6, 2013 - 8:46 PM
Somebody a while back mentioned they think Rosenbauer will be custom designing the boom piece of the new squads. I beg to differ-based on Rosenbauer’s website, they already make the T-rex articulating platform, which is 115′ long. All they need to do is shorten it to fit the length of the CFD chassis. A design modification yes; a from scratch design, requiring such extensive testing, no.
#23 by Bill Post on December 28, 2012 - 1:18 PM
Yes Mike Mc, I agree that it would be good to have the working hours published along with the runs that each rig took in. They used to publish those, but I haven’t seen them lately.
I find that it has been easier to get information on the New York City Fire Department run stats then Chicago’s. In fact, in New York City, they actually differentiate between workers and occupied structure workers, and they have a separate category for EMS and All-Hands runs. An All-Hands would be what we call a Still and Box Alarm.
The CFD has changed the running districts for the squads several times. Like Chuck said, the current squad company working fire districts had been only a portion of what they are now until the early 2000s when their working fire districts were expanded again. Either way, as the south side is larger then the west side and the north side, Squad 5 has a larger area to cover than Squads 1 and 2. For example, the south side has most of 11 battalions covering it, while the north side only has most of 7 or 8 battalions if you don’t included Battalion 6 at O’Hare field and you include Battalion 3 which covers the near north and west sides.
As you know, the command vans and the squads get dispatched once it looks like that they have a working fire. Because of it’s size, the south side has two command vans so it makes just as much sense to have two south side squads. I generally agree with your evaluation that Engine 121 is too far west and that Engines 81 and 104 are too far east. If you want a squad that is centrally located to cover the far south side, the squad would be best located within a mile of State Street because of its central location. Engine 122 still is in a pretty good location as they are located near the Dan Ryan Expressway, and once a unit is on the expressway they can take it to the Bishop Ford if they are going to the east end of the 22nd or the west end of the 24th battalions. If they are running to the south end of the 21st Battalion, they can go up I57, which is good if they are following Engine 120 or even Engine 92.
There actually is another advantage in being located at Engine 122’s house. That would put the squad adjacent to the 23rd Battalion. It appears that both the 23rd and the 22nd battalions seem to have been a getting larger number of working fires in the 6th District. Engine 122’s house would have the squad located in between both of those battalions while being near the 21st Battalion as well.
Since we are talking about the far south side, here is some interesting information. During the mid 1980s, the Chicago Fire Department’s research and planning department did an in-house study of fire apparatus coverage for the city. They found that the far south side needed more truck and engine coverage, which was based on “demand zones” and necessary “redundancies”. To translate, the demand zones were potential fire areas where the travel time for an engine or truck was less then ideal. The redundancies were a lack of sufficient engines located south of 79th street to provide enough change companies there.
So these were the recommendations of the in-house study.
– Four new fire stations (actually 5) were recommended to be built. 200 East 130th Street (for Engine 75), approximately 3100 East 130th Street for (Engine 97), approximately 103rd and State Street for (Engine 93) and 732 West 115th Street for Engine 104 and Truck 24.
I know that you must be asking yourself why Engine 104?
Here’s why Engine 104 was recommended. Engine 104 was located at Engine 1’s house at the time and it was felt that an engine at 115th and Emerald would be good for a “change of quarters engine” as well as for Truck 24 which is just over a mile from Truck 40 and Engine 121 (as well as Engine 120 and 93). Engine 104 would have been used as a change company for the far south side and Engine 115 and Engine 62 would have stayed where they are today.
As for Truck 61’s station (there was no engine there yet), Engine 103’s house would have been closed, moving them to Truck 61 (instead of Engine 104).
Engine 63 and Truck 16’s old house at 1405 E 62nd Place would have been closed and Truck 16 would be moved to Engine 81’s house (where Truck 61 originally was put in service). Engine Company 63 would have been taken out of service and the manpower would have been used to create a new truck company that would have gone into service at Engine 75’s new house at 200 E 130th Street.
Engine 20 (down the block from Fleet Management) would have been taken out of service and the manpower would have been used to create a new truck company located with Engine 97 at 3100 E 130th Street.
A third new truck company was recommended to go in service at Engine 93’s proposed new house at 103rd and State street.
I previously mentioned that a fifth new station was also recommended to be built at 6100 South Cicero for Engine 127. Truck 12 was recommended to be relocated there (from Engine 13’s quarters).
As this report was authored in 1985/86, Engine 127 was located at their old station at Central and 64th Street and the Midway Airport Station was at Central and 59th Street.
The Bedford Park Fire Department had a fire station at 6535 S Central, so it was recommended that an agreement be made with Bedford Park to have them respond as automatic-aid to the areas of Chicago where their station was effectively the still alarm engine. In effect they would have covered the south end of Engine 127 and 32’s district. Since then, that Bedford Park station has been relocated about half a mile further east at 67th near Laramie.
This same in-house study also recommended similar automatic-aid agreements with the suburbs of Bensenville, Cicero, Dolton, Elk Grove Village, Park Ridge, Riverdale, Rosemont, and Schiller Park for the perimeters of the city where their companies were close to the Chicago border. Several of those towns are near O’Hare Field, which while the city has jurisdiction on the airport property, the Kennedy Expressway, and Mannheim Road, those towns are practically across the street from the airport.
Unlike the Maatman reports of 1964, 1968, and 1970/71, this was an in-house study. Most of the recommendations weren’t accepted … possibly because of money and politics.
The study was a very good one which examined the fire company running districts and how long it would take to get to different areas (demand zones). They also looked at what is called overlap, were several companies would be able to arrive within an acceptable time period. It was mainly focused on the far south side as that’s where there were some significant gaps and overlaps as well.
So, if the recommendations were followed, Engine 93 would have been in a new and a larger station by now. The last of the truck houses without an engine is Truck 24. Both the Maatman reports and the fire department’s study recommended relocating them. The Maatman study had recommended relocating them with Engine 120 (at or near their present location) and the CFD study had recommended they be relocated southeast to 115th near Halsted with an engine. They really should be the next company to get a new fire station built.
#24 by Mike McAuliffe on December 28, 2012 - 10:29 AM
Yes Dennis, about ten years ago the squads would not respond to working fires at the far ends of the city unless they “boxed” the fire. The theory was that if was a working still, the squads would not get there in time to make a difference. The policy mostly affected the 6th district.
#25 by Spoung45 on December 28, 2012 - 9:14 AM
If the 4th squad dose not go to O’Hare. They could maybe move a Squad to 112 since a few months ago 2-7-2 was running out of E-70s house for a short time. I know 2 is at 91’s house, They could split the city in to quadrants. Having Western Ave. and Roosevelt be the dividing lines. or something like that.
I know that is most likely not going to happen, but it kind of just made me wonder why the van was running out of 70’s house for a short time, only to be moved back to 112’s.
#26 by Dennis on December 28, 2012 - 5:40 AM
@Mike Mc…what do you mean by ‘ Still & Box District”? Are you saying that the squads would NOT respond until the fire went to a Still & Box?
#27 by Mike Mc on December 27, 2012 - 10:13 PM
Chuck, thanks for redeeming me on the fact that Squad 5 used to have a still and box district. I fear some of the younger generation thought I lost my marbles.
I enjoyed your anecdote about Squad 13 and Squad 6. I used to fan on Flying Manpower Squad 2 in the 1970’s, so I am very familiar with Engine 93’s firehouse history of squad companies.
I would be very curious to know how many working hours Squad 5 had on working fires, that were held to a still alarm, south of 87th Street.
Pat Kehoe, (the 2-1-5 Pat Kehoe), really knew what he was doing when it came to the squads. They were lessons painfully learned when he was on SS-1 and SS-2.
#28 by Chuck on December 27, 2012 - 6:00 PM
Mike, you mentioned E-47 as a spot for a squad – there was one there (Squad 5) – it was put in service in October of 1980 – they covered from 39th Street on the north, State Street on the west (which jogged west to Halsted out by 99th Street or something like that,) and the lake and city limits to the east and south. Squad 4 was at 116, Squad 1 was at Engine 5, Squad 2 was a few places (117, 68,) and Squad 3 was at 112 and 110. In 1982 or 83 they wanted to put a 6th Squad in, and were going to move 4 from 116 to 95, 5 from 47 to 116, and the new Squad was going to go in at E-93. But the Captain of Squad 4 complained, so the new one went to 95, 4 stayed at 116 and became Squad 5, and 5 was renumbered 6 and moved to E-93. I have pictures of it running out of 47 numbered as Squad 6. When they moved it to 93, their fire duty plunged, and a lot of guys left there. They were redeemed when they recreated the snorkel squads and brought them back to E-122 as Squad 5 with Snorkel 5 from E-72. Also, one night hanging around at 93, we were going to write “Squad 6” on a blank piece of cardboard which was up under the running board glass – when we took it down, we found that the cardboard was in fact the running board placard for Squad 13, which ran out of 93 in the days when there were 13 squad companies.