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• #1 by Bill Post on November 2, 2014 - 7:38 PM

  

  Chuck which Mack are you talking about at Engine 108, the 1974 Mack MB/Howe or their 1956 Mack B-Model?
  The tillered aerial ladder that you were on was that the FWD from the 1950’s that you are talking about? When the Flying Squad was first put in service on November 16 1971, Truck 23 was reassigned an FWD wooden aerial ladder truck and the first rig that Flying Squad 7 used was a 1953 FWD pumper.
  When I used to go there the tillered aerial truck was in the north bay and the ambulance and battalion chief’s station wagon were parked just south of the truck toward the rear. Engine 108 was in the south bay and Squad 11 was parked in front of them. When Flying Squad 7 first was put in service they were parked in front of Engine 108 (where Squad 11 used to be).
  By the way 1967 was the last full year that Squad 11 was in service. They were taken out of service on March 7 1968. The last month before they were taken out of service they only had a driver assigned who only responded on Still and Box Alarms. They were lucky as most of the other squads were either taken out of service or had become one-man companies in 1967. Only four squads had survived 1968 and those were Salvage Squads 1 and 2, and Squads 4 and 9. Squads 4 and 9 had become Salvage Squads 3 and 7 in October of 1968. Snorkel Squad 1 had survived and Snorkel Squads 2 and 3 lasted until May of 1969, however Snorkel Squad 3 had been running without a Snorkel since January of 1967 and Snorkel Squad 2 stopped running with their Snorkel by late 1968 as well.

• #2 by Bill Post on November 2, 2014 - 1:02 PM

  

  Yes Chuck I go back to when Squad 11 was at Engine 108’s house and the ambulance was number 7 and the truck was an old tillered aerial ladder with a 1946 Mack tractor and a trailer that was even older (from the 1920’s). Ladders hung on the side of the trailer and were used in place of hand railings on the newer models.
  Engine 46’s station was another one of those extra large 2 bay stations. The first time that I was there Snorkel 6 was in service with their original 65-foot Srato Tower on a 1961 Ford chassis and they were parked behind the engine, the truck was one of the brand new Mack/Pirsch 1966 model 100-foot mid-mounted aerial with a very long rear overhang.
  An old Civil Defense International rescue squad was also parked in the station as well as Ambulance 9. The Mack/Pirsch truck was not more then a few months old as they had been using a tillered aerial ladder before that. Either way there were 4 pieces of heavy apparatus plus an ambulance inside the 2 bay station at the time. That actually had beat out Engine 108 and Engine 109’s house if you include the Civil Defense rig that was parked in the station.

  • #3 by Chuck on November 2, 2014 - 3:20 PM

    

    Bill, I go back to the 1970’s when 108 had a Mack, and the Squad was the Mack Platt. They backed in side by side on the north side with the ambo in front and the truck and buggy ran off the south side. We moved into the neighborhood in 1967, and I remember being put into the tiller seat and my feet going down into the ladder sections.

• #4 by Bill Post on November 2, 2014 - 10:59 AM

  

  Yes I heard that back in the early days the hooks on the original Hook and Ladders were a different kind of hook then the ceiling hooks on the pike poles however at least they are a type of a hook.
  Chuck were you at Engine 109 and Truck 32 between September 22nd 1961 and May 16 1965 when Snorkel 1 was there? The Snorkel must have been parked behind the engine however the house must have been pretty crowded considering that it was only a 2 bay station. The bays must have been pretty long however. As Snorkel 1 was only 50 feet as opposed to the High Ranger Snorkels that were ordered after Snorkel 1 which were 65 to 85 feet and had long front overhangs, Snorkel 1 was small enough to fit into the station. When the Snorkels were first put in service during the late 1950’s and early 1960’s there were many stations that they could fit them into and the intentions were to have one Snorkel in each of the 7 fire divisions (at the time). One of the problems was that the 2nd Division (on the West Side) didn’t have room in any of their stations for one of the larger High Ranger Snorkels so they ended up having to move Snorkel 1 to Engine 109’s house from Engine 50’s house on the south side as Snorkel 1’s rig was the only Snorkel that was small enough to fit into Engine 109’s house. They also had run Fog Pressure 9 from Engine 109’s house for about 2 years and Engine 99 had moved in with them for over a year and a half when they were repairing Engine 99’s house after a fire in it during 1976. At the time Engine 99 was sharing quarters with Engine 109, Ambulance 34 was already in service there as well.

  • #5 by Chuck on November 2, 2014 - 11:12 AM

    

    That would have been just as crowded as 108, when they had 5 companies running out of there…108, Truck 23, FMS 7, Ambulance 47 and the 22nd Battalion.

• #6 by Dennis on November 2, 2014 - 10:24 AM

  

  Yes Bill once you’re certified, you’re certified your entire career even if that certain type of equipment is no longer used by the department.

• #7 by Chuck on November 2, 2014 - 1:22 AM

  

  The “hook” half of the term hook & ladder referred to the fact that the hooks were literally used to pull a frame structure apart and down to the ground so as to form a firebreak, more so than their current use for opening walls and ceilings and venting windows.

• #8 by Chuck on November 1, 2014 - 3:44 PM

  

  Couple of things to note here. First, the current 2-1-5 is an idiot. If his fishlips weren’t planted so firmly on Rahm Emanuel’s backside, he’d be riding a desk somewhere as a Community Coordinator Commander or something like that. Secondly – when Truck 32 had their tiller in the old house, they were in the south bay. It was amazing to see that rig pull out of the house and yank a U turn AT SPEED to go west on 24th Street. Ah, for the history…….

• #9 by Bill Post on November 1, 2014 - 12:36 PM

  

  That’s interesting Dennis. Is it that once you’ve been trained and certified that the certification remains even if the fire department that are on hasn’t been running a Tillered Aerial Ladder in about 25 years?

• #10 by Dennis on October 31, 2014 - 7:22 PM

  

  I know of at least 1 guy who is still on the job who is qualified to drive a tiller.

• #11 by tom sullivan on October 31, 2014 - 9:28 AM

  

  bill,
  good history on the tiller trucks. we will probably never see them again in Chicago due to the cost factors. drivers training is also an issue.
  the tiller trucks were an interesting sight going down the streets with the tillerman sitting up high. making turns would swing the ladder in a wide arc, ,,occasionally with contact with vehicles, light poles, etc.
  t-47 was fun to watch making the turns onto Hollywood or broadway, since coming off of ridge av. was less than a 90* angle they were usually at a higher speed. and with the heavy traffic on those streets it was an exercise in tiller maneuvering at it’s best . members riding on the running boards would have to have to have a good hold on to keep from sliding off due to the centrifical force.
  backing the tiller trucks in was interesting because the tractor would make it’s approach and the tiller driver would swing the trailer into a position to get the ladder started into the house, then the tiller driver would stand up and face rearward to steer the trailer in.
  at t-21’s house on school st. the sidewalks & curbs on 3 corners were set back to allow them to pull out and make a complete turn and go southbound on greenview, a very tight turn.
  a good case could be made for more maneuverable trucks in many parts of the city, the lake front, and t-32’s “little village” being prime examples. with the traffic and illegally parked cars, it is often a challenge to get into the streets. the drivers earn every penny of their “premium” pay !

• #12 by Bill Post on October 31, 2014 - 5:01 AM

  

  This is a correction of a typo from the previous blog on the last of Chicago’s Tillered Truck companies.Truck 54 had become a Tower Ladder during December of 1996 and not 1986 like I had inadvertently typed.

• #13 by Bill Post on October 31, 2014 - 4:53 AM

  

  Spoung45, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I had overlooked the wording “Tillerman” on the form. I would assume that no one in the CFD administrative office had bothered to edit it. I really think that it could have been an administrative oversight as since Chicago doesn’t run with any Tillered Aerial Ladders how can there be a Tillerman? That does bring a question to mind however and that is did Tillermen (drivers) in Chicago receive any special perks(higher pay) for being the “Tillerman”?
  At least the with the term “hook and ladder” , the Truck company does carry Ladders (obviously) and ceiling hooks (pike poles).
  Chicago started getting away from purchasing Tillered Aerial Ladder Trucks beginning in 1959/1960 when CFD purchased Mack/ Magirus rear mounted Metal Aerial Ladders. The first 2 were 100 footers and the second 2 were 144 footers. The next Trucks after that were in 1966 and were 5 mid mounted Mack/Pirsch 100 foot Aerial Ladders. The following year the CFD purchased 2 Seagrave mid mounted Aerial Ladders as well as a rear mounted Seagrave Aerial Ladder Truck and from then on all of Chicago’s Trucks were rearmounted Aerial Ladders with one exception and that was in 1975/76 when Chicago received 5 new (or so to speak) International Harvester/FWD/Seagrave Tillered Aerial Ladder Trucks. The International Harvester cabs were new and the 100 foot Seagrave Aerial Ladders were new however the Trailers were supposedly rebuilt from 1954 model FWD trailers. The trailers were for most intents and purposes new as by looking at them it was hard to see that much of a resemblance to the 1954 model trailers. When the trailers were originally built in 1954 they had feature 85 foot wooden Aerial Ladders with a long rear overhang. The “Tillerman’s” Seat was built over the long wooden Aerial Ladder and the rear steering wheel had to removed ,as well as having both the seat and the Tillerman’s wind shield repositioned off of the ladder so the Aerial Ladder could be raised. With the rebuild trailers the Tillerman’s seat ,windshield and steering wheel were in a “fixed position” as the new 100 foot Aerial Ladders didn’t have an overhang and the Tillerman’s seat was positions behind the ladder and not on top of it which was the case with the 85 foot Wooden Aerials. As I was saying it was pretty difficult to see a resemblance or to believe that those trailers had been rebuilt from 1954 models.
  Those 5 Tillered Aerials were sort of a last Hoorah for the Tillered Aerial Ladder in Chicago as by then most (if not all) of the older 1950’s and earlier Wooden (and a few metal) Aerial Ladders had been retired and replaced by single piece straight frame Aerial Ladder Trucks.
  Fire Commissioner Robert J Quinn was still the Fire Commissioner at the time , so it couldn’t be said that 1975/76 model Tillered Aerial Ladders were ordered because of a New Administration in the Chicago Fire Department. Fire Commissioner Robert J Quinn had been the Fire Commissioner February 1st 1957 to March 31 1978.
  Those 5 Tillered Aerial Ladders were initially put in service at Trucks 41,14, 42, 53 and 54. Truck 14’s TDA (Tillered Aerial Ladder) changed locations with the Truck when it moved from Engine 68 to Engine 91 and finally to Engine 117 when they moved to their house on February 1st 1985. They were the last Aerial Ladder assigned to Truck 14 before they became a Tower Ladder during 1986. Truck 42’s TDA was reassigned to Truck 32 in mid 1981 when Truck 42 resumed running with a rear mounted Aerial Ladder.
  As the International/FWD/Seagrave TDA began to be replaced in 1986 several of them had been reassigned to Truck 32 for the last 2 years before Truck 32 received a rear mounted Aerial in 1988. The last 2 to be replaced were Truck 41’s and Truck 54’s Aerial Ladder as was previously mentioned.
  Truck 54 TDA was replaced by a rear mounted Aerial Ladder 1989 and Truck 54 didn’t become a Tower Ladder until December of 1986.
  Tillered Aerial Ladders while still being used by some fire departments are more expensive then your standard rear mounted Aerial Ladder. They are also more cumbersome to operate yet there some congested areas with narrow streets with limited turning radius’s in some of the older cities where the Tillered Aerial Ladder Truck has proven to be more maneuverable and that is why they are still being used in quite a few cities.
  The New York City Fire Department which is the largest fire department by far in North America replaced most of their 143 “Ladder”companies during the 1970’s with rear mounted aerial ladders or with mid mounted Aerial Scopes ( Telescopic Tower Ladders currently built by Seagrave) still runs with 13 Tillered Aerial Ladder Trucks due to some difficult to maneuver streets within those 13 Ladder companies , first due areas.
  All 23 of the Philadephia Fire Departments “straight” Aerial Ladders are Tillered Aerials.
  All 19 of San Francisco’s Ladder companies are also Tillered Aerials. The same also goes for the Los Angeles City Fire Departments current fleet of 42 front line Aerial Ladder Trucks.
  Surprisingly the Seattle Fire Department which operates 11 Ladder companies , had traditionally only had the 3 Ladder companies in or near the downtown area operating Tillered Aerials but as of the last several years they have been in the process of converting all of their Aerial Ladder Trucks into Tillered Trucks.
  There are few congested areas with narrow side sides in Chicago (particularly along the lake front) that could probably make good use of a Tillered Aerial Truck however I really don’t see that happening in Chicago because of the higher price’s of Tillered Aerial Ladder Trucks.

• #14 by CFD 1979 on October 30, 2014 - 8:56 AM

  

  Because it’s a term that has been carried on. Just like why would they use the term “hook and ladder?” It has been passed along.

• #15 by spoung45 on October 30, 2014 - 8:53 AM

  

  I was just wondering about the “tilleman time report form” that is listed in the above memo. If there are no tillemen why would there be a report form for such a title?

• #16 by Bill Post on October 29, 2014 - 11:15 PM

  

  Spoung45 I presume that you are asking does Chicago have any Tillered Aerial Ladder Truck drivers. Chicago hasn’t run with a Tillered Aerial Ladder truck since the late 1980’s. The last Tillered Aerial Ladder Truck was in service at Truck 54 at 4034 W 47th street and was taken out of service on March 8 1989. It is pretty safe to say that there aren’t any Chicago fire fighters who are trained and qualified to steer a Tillered Aerial Ladder Truck.
  Both of Evanston’s Truck companies are Tillered Aerial Ladders and Cicero Illinois runs with A Tillered Aerial Ladder Truck 2 at Station 1. You might want to visit the Cicero and the Evanston fire departments if you want to see an Tillered Aerial Ladder Truck. I don’t know if the Tillerman (rear driver) gets extra pay or whether the entire crew is trained to drive the trailer however if you visit Evanston or Cicero and find out.

• #17 by spoung45 on October 29, 2014 - 8:58 AM

  

  There is still a Tilleman title?

• #18 by Dennis on October 28, 2014 - 7:56 PM

  

  Well Mike, I have to correct you on this. The enforcement is a huge fine. I seen the paperwork from IDOL to the city and I cant tell you the city doesn’t want this in there lap. Regardless if you have issues at your place then you need to make a bigger push. Almost all department now are requiring the ESS connections and vehicle exhaust systems. Not only does IDOL require it but it’s also NFPA. Even in the order it states because of the ESS connections.

• #19 by Mike on October 28, 2014 - 6:29 PM

  

  dennis, IDOL doesn’t do jack shit about complaints like that. There are no enforcement mechanisms in illinois to make them comply with having hoses for exhaust. We went through the same thing where I work and we had the same thing diesel exhaust in our living quarters and there is no enforcement mechanism so guess what? We still have diesel exhaust in our living quarters .

• #20 by dennis on October 28, 2014 - 10:48 AM

  

  If you notice the first part of the order states they were moved because to ensure that each vehicle has a ESS connection…What a joke. I know for a fact that 9-2-2, 8-8-12, 9-2-1 do NOT have any connections at their new locations. This is purely a power move because of a IDOL violation the union filed against the city so 2-1-5 is moving rigs around until someone else complains. Then he will move them again. The moves make no sense in the operational needs of the department and that’s why he should be fired. This is not a job of trying to make people look better, it’s not about making the alderman happy. It’s about protecting the firefighters, civilians and the visitors of this great city. Its disgusting the way this administration has destroyed moral and pushed the department back 20 years.

• #21 by Bill Post on October 27, 2014 - 9:05 PM

  

  Tom you’re correct because I rad it the same way that you did and Engine 46 and after them Engine 47 has the furthest distances to go the pick up their “Special Duty” Apparatus. Hopefully this long distance pickup arrangement won’t last too long as if and when Engine 46 would need travel to Engine 16 , it would (in my opinion) be necessary to have another Engine company change quarters to Engine 46 as Engine 46 is a good distance away from a second Engine and the two Engines to the north of Engine 46 (72 and 126) are pretty busy themselves both on ALS runs as well as on fires. Just a couple of weeks ago ago there was a fire just a few block north of Engine 46’s house and Engine 46 wasn’t available so Truck 17 had to “hold the fort” until other Engine companies arrived. That fire was caught on video tape. The next closest Engines to 46’s quarters are all at least 2 or more miles away.
  You may remember that for years Engine 87 had been located only about mile north of Engine 46 at 8701 S Escanaba however they were taken out of service on October 1st 1969. That house did remain open for nearly another 11 years however until June 4th 1980 when Flying Manpower Squad 1 was taken out of service. When Engine 87 was in service they were only about 2 minutes away from Engine 46 quarters.

• #22 by CFD 1979 on October 27, 2014 - 6:47 PM

  

  There are many updates that need to be made to the website. Some of the truck companies especially.

• #23 by Michael M on October 27, 2014 - 5:27 PM

  

  Hopefully it won’t take long for the new companies to get trained on the auxiliary apparatus. By the way does anyone have a updated picture of CFD engine 23? I believe their current rig is a 2009 or 2010. The 2000 ALF is still posted on the website.

• #24 by tom sullivan on October 27, 2014 - 3:23 PM

  

  so if I read this right,,, e-46 will go every morning to e-16 to do an inventory on 6-2-5,, and also if a response with the rig is called for ?
  that is a lot of driving far out of their (e-46) dist. !
  I would hope they (e-16) are at the top of the training schedule.
  got to wonder sometimes….. !!!

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